Hating yourself for Christ's sake...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hating yourself for Christ's sake...

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Ray, I don't think anybody will be destroyed. I think each of us who falls short of the celestial kingdom will be assigned to a place with others of the same level of righteousness.

As for what Christ suffered for us foul ups and what He got out of it, I'm reminded of the cases of guys covering a grenade with their bodies to protect other men who may or may not have deserved to go on living.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I try not to beat myself raw... but like most people there are times...

When that happens I try to remember that is what the adversary wants... he wants us to believe we are not worth the Savior's gift... The Savior says that we are His... bought with a price. Don't deny His efforts by letting the adversary convince you otherwise. You know the phrase, if I knew then what I know now??? Well, He WOULD do it again, of that I am convinced...

That He loves us that much is the miracle for me... My goal is to learn to love my brothers and sisters in the same way... If I do that as best I can, most of my sins begin to take care of themselves. (In that, I don't commit as many, and I will want to repent and rectify my wrongs much quicker...)

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, I've had similar feelings, and I discussed them with a chaplain of another faith once. His reply (paraphrased): Too late. The price has already been paid. You just need to decide when you're going to really accept the gift, and then show your gratitude by committing your life to Christ.

I think that's pretty inspired guidance.

Organist · Senior Member

Have you ever put in a lot of work into a party or ward event or something and then have no one show up? That no one cared about your sacrifice hurts much worse than the actual pain of doing it.

My mom went through a lot of pain during labor for my twin and me, but that is already done. I cannot change that it has been done. My mom would never want that to be changed.

Why do I bring up birth?

Isaiah 53:8 "He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:"

This leads me to believe that he had no children. Verse 10 continues answers this, "when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed." We become his children when we make his soul an offering for sin. This is like a "birthing process". Painful, but worthwhile.

glumirk · Senior Member

I don't know how many of you watched the Da Vinci Code, but this reminds me of the character who beats himself up in a likening of the sacrifice of Christ. What hurt me worse than seeing him maim himself, was seeing him do so needlessly. I left that movie just feeling sorry for anyone who believes that they need to suffer as Christ suffers. Don't they understand that He suffered for us, so we don't have to?

When I was in high school I put myself through a lot of pain because I was thinking about things with the wrong perspective.

Because He is a loving Father, Heavenly Father wants all of us to return to Him. I'm sure that if there were a way we could learn and have experience without having to suffer, He would do it. However, doing so would take our agency, which would hurt everyone worse than we can ever imagine. Thus His plan includes a way to minimize our pains, as long as we choose to allow Him to minimize them.

I know for a fact that unrepented sin hurts far worse and much longer than it really takes to repent of a sin. And truthfully, the Atonement is so infinite that Christ has already suffered for our sins. We just have to allow that suffering to be for good, instead of causing two people to suffer instead of just one.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I have to think on this one for a bit before giving a reply.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Wow, that's a first.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I always think before I reply. Sometimes it may not look like it, but often I do spend a fair amount of time composing posts on thoughts / topics that I consider significant.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

This should be a good one, cuz he's sure taking his time...

(This is just fun joking around, 'kay? 'KAY??)

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

In connection with Roper's quote about it being too late, since the price has already been paid...

Just keep in mind, it was an infinite Atonement. So, even if you could go back and take all your own contributions back: infinity minus Ray's piddly little contribution = still infinity. So, there's really no point.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:

It just doesn't seem fair that Christ should have to suffer for me,
...
I have to wonder why... I mean it's such a terrible price, sometimes I don't see what he gets out of it.

No, it is not fair that Christ suffered for you or for me. Yet, fairness is actually part of the equation when there are two seemingly opposing laws that must be fulfilled, Justice and Mercy. If we wanted fair as we understand it, we would all look forward to filling the demands of Justice. But, the fact is, we are unable to fill those demands. We have not the power to do so. Something about our breaking of lessor laws removes that capability. Thus, we must subject ourselves to the law of Mercy. And there must needs be a hope. A Savior had to be put in place in order to satisfy both laws. If The Father had not done so, He would cease to be God, for the whole of creation would have come to naught. But the whole of creation is not a thing of naught, and God ceaseth not to be God. A Savior was prepared. A Savior who was the embodiment of the laws and had the power necessary to fill the law. And there is true hope, for the subjects of Mercy can be redeemed without robbing that which is due to Justice. So perhaps is the fairness as understood by God in the equation, for it would not be fair to us if Christ had not suffered for you or me.

Is it really such a terrible price as compared to the price that would still be there unpaid if there had been no Savior? What does He get out of it? I don't think He looks at it that way. I think He probably looks more at what will they get out of it... a kind of I'm happy if you're happy paradigm. See D&C 18:10-13, D&C 19:1-19, and Alma 7:11-13.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Euphrasie wrote:
infinity minus Ray's piddly little contribution = still infinity. So, there's really no point.

I knew we could count on Euph to give us a completely rational anwer supported by indisputable mathematical evidence smile

And I'm sure Ray's contribution rates a little more than "piddly" wink

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Well, you've got me there.

I'm telling you though, the answer to everything is math.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

rayb wrote:
Okay I know this isn't sensible, and it changes nothing, but sometimes I think about what Christ volunteered to do for us, and I have to wonder why... I mean it's such a terrible price, sometimes I don't see what he gets out of it. I know that's a cynical way to look at it too, but I was thinking about this yesterday, about how amazing and generous the Atonement is... sometimes I like to think that well... God HAD to provide a way for us... but then I think... no... I don't think so... It was his Gift.

Anyhow... Just wondering if any of you have had similar thoughts and feelings about the gift of grace given to each of us.

Yes, it was a terrible price, He didn't want to have to suffer it, I am glad He did. Someday, I want personally thank Him (I do that now) in person. I want know how it was done. I have experienced some of my own pain for my own sins, I cannot imagine suffering all at once for I did/will do, let alone for all at once.

God had to provide a way, otherwise, we would not be able to return. Christ instructed us to pray for our enemies, do good for them that use us, forgive each other. He tells us this, because that is what He did and does. We are enemies to God because of our carnal natures. We need to learn these things so that we too can become a god, to be like Him, to have His image written in our countenances.

I do feel bad about the pain I placed on my Saviour, the pain I have made my Father feel. I have apologized and thanked in the same prayers for the pain endured, the Will suffered.

It is a gift. Every Christmas we go over this with our kids. That gifts are representative of Christ's and the Father's gift to us. That we are not entitled to gifts, but they are given out of love for our children and each other.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Roper: :)

I want to thank him too, though I have no idea how anything I could do could ever in any way sufficiently thank Him...

--Ray