Talks on Mother's Day

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Talks on Mother's Day

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I agree with you for the most part. It is men's role to lead. If, however, they fail to lead, someone else must. Maybe this is the case with the guy giving the talk and saying Adam was clueless. Maybe he hopes Adam was clueless, so he feels more justified in his own laziness leading his family. Hey, if Eve can take care of things in the Garden, I'll just let my wife run things now...

I have no idea why so many couples seem to be this way. Some women are manipulative, I guess - like Harriet Olsen or Mrs. Martin Harris. Some men would rather cave than deal with conflict. Goes both ways, of course. I think there's a lot of compromise going on...

Personally, I get a bit torqued when men come off like they're all losers.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Yeah, coco, that is a big pet peeve when a husband will not lead. I have seen the downfall of a family because he would not lead, he will have to answer for his stewardship.

I had not thought of it as posibly being an excuse, interesting.

Being leader means dealing with conflict, making tough choices, sticking your head out. Where much is given, much is required. The way I see it is that men as the head of their families is a small classroom for learning to be a God over a larger family. To me this ties in with the parable of the talents. I think it has to do with developing ourselves personally, but if God is to make a man ruler over many, then he must start with a little, in this case, a family.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think mother's day is hit and miss because we all know there's an ideal mother/father figure. Those that have done it can see flaws in their children that they wish they'd done more for... we compare ourselves and others and we don't meet the ideal.

Ironically I find this imbalance (at my current stage in life) comforting and refreshing, but it bothers a lot of people.

I think it would help if we all weren't so critical of each other. Sure criticism helps us to know what we're doing wrong, but it seems like we're unable to receive and give compliments these days--especially to others without feeling deprived of a compliment ourselves. I see this in my children all the time... One child is given praise, and the others all line up expecting the same praise.

You can give praise to one, and all the others should be happy for the one--it "should" imply nothing about you. Then again we were all raised on the story of Cinderella and to feel sorry for her neglect.

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray,

I think you are a wonderful person.

...most of the time. :0)

M

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

That's funny about the kids lining up for praise. Our 2 yo boy's favorite is "Me, too" like we'll be driving up the canyon and his sister says, "I see a squirrel" and he chimes in "I see it, too" or we say something about one of the kids speaking in Primary and he says, "I speak, too" (He's in nursery.) Quite fun.

So what makes men afraid of their wives?

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

What makes men afraid of their wives?

-Men would rather not argue with them.
-Arguing with women is a losing proposition, it does not work.
-Don't want contention.
-Don't want sex cut off.
-Not worth the effort.
-Don't want to be badgered or nagged.
-Don't know how to deal with them.
-The sissification/wussification of men in this country.
-Are told wives are angels and men are less than women.
-Other.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Yeah, that about explains it...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Women hold grudges, their feelings are like a force of nature that grows and swells like a hurricaine, and tend to get angry at a different rate than men... so by the time men are done and over some little altercaion, the woman's just got all revved up to gale force winds... Then the guy gets blasted, and often does something in the process to fuel the next stormfront... it creates the world's only known "perpetual motion" machine... biggrin

--Ray

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

should've said, a 'perpetual e-motion machine'... :)

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

{backing slowly away from Ray before the daggers start flying...}

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think Val would call you a feminized man... ;)

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I don't know, Cat may be showing some prudence and wisdom there.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Back off, wusses. evileye

Okay, so one of the issues seems to be the getting over or not getting over altercations...? It appears that we women hold on to the hurt (or whatever) longer than the men do. I think one reason for this is we ASSume the men know what we're pissed about. Most of the time, they just don't, I've discovered, even though it is PAINFULLY obvious.

This very thing happened between me and MrCoco on Mother's Day. It was sooooo obvious what was ticking me off. He was ignoring it and that was ticking me off more. FINALLY, I decided to just blurt out the obvious. Yes, state the obvious. Like, I can't believe you said --blah blah--. He looked at me with this weirdface face and said, "I'm sorry." I looked back with this face and said, "It's alright." I honestly don't think he had a clue. Never ceases to amaze me.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Fine, Women have a tendency to suppress their offenses. This is a good trait if you can let go of them... but often after a few of them start to stack up, the whole cascades down...

Many men have a tendency to get over altercations quickly, but then they also tend to forget other things too, like what they were just told ten seconds ago.

--Ray

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Coco, obvious to you, not to him. I have had times when my wife was trying to get my attention and thought I was ignoring her. I wasn't, I had no idea she was trying to get me attention. Subtleties and such are not effective on men, ususally.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

{seriously glad this is a forum where we "clueless ones" are in the majority... 'course, some of the "enlightened ones" who shall remain nameless shall hereafter be glad that some of us "clueless ones" 's Mommas taught us not to smack an "enlightened one" even if they commit the heresy of calling us wusses

}

historian · Senior Member

Val,

I think most of the "men are incapable dopes" stuff comes from the culture that surrounds us. During my lifetime, that theme seems to have been a principle part of "humor." For example, on the Donnie and Maire show long ago that everyone LDS watched, Marie was always making put-down jokes to Donny. Also in the FoxTrot comic strip dad is shown as a dope, and on and on to innummerable examples of "female superiority."

Not only the humor, but also the FemiNazi culture preaching fervently again that same "female superiority" which is, of course, contrary to the Gospel, where we are taught that we are equal.

Compounding the problem is that we live in a fault-finding, critical society. This is enough of a problem that Elder Holland gave a talk in this last conference called "The Tongue of Angels."

As a society, we need to be cleaned up.

-- Edited by historian at 15:34, 2007-05-15

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Well, I must say that our bishop gave a near-perfect Mothers Day talk on Sunday. In my opinion, he addressed a lot of important points, and said a lot of very tender things that should have made most of the women in attendance feel very good. I know I enjoyed 98% of his talk immensely.

He really is a very nice man, whose loving service to our ward is, well, inspired and loving.

For about one minute out of his 15 minute talk, he veered into the territory of male put downs and how they mess up a lot and how they need women to find their car keys because they're just mindless insensitive dolts, and yada yada yada. I remember thinking to myself "is it possible for an LDS man to give a talk praising women without throwing dirt on men in some fashion?"

I think it is possible.

Logically, wouldn't he just be able to say a lot of really nice things about women and then just stop talking? It sounds so easy when you type it out like that.

Unfortunately no male speaker of which I am aware has been brave enough to test my hypothesis. Apparently, they are all very afraid that a talk which praises women and does not throw at least a token knife at men will somehow rip a hole in the fabric of space-time. Estoy muy confundido.

-- Edited by Hoss Cartwright at 16:25, 2007-05-15

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hoss, i would be grateful if you would reply to my INVASION thread. What makes a man?

--Ray

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think I am always in a different meeting from everyone else. I hear people talk that feel similar in my ward... but I didn't hear any of those comments about men.

The ONLY reason I know where my keys are, is because they AWAYS go in the same place, every single time. If hubby counted on me to find his own keys he'd never go anywhere... So I was curious, and I asked him... "Did you feel beat up at church on Mother's Day???" He said he enjoyed all the comments. They didn't feel negative to him.

But on Sunday in RS a couple different sisters made comments that their hubbies had felt emotionally abused by the end of the talks. I think I have that selective hearing people always accuse others of... blankstare

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Some people over-generalize a lot. It's a good thing I don't hold a grudge.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

went to two full 3 hour blocks on Sunday.

First sacrament meeting.... EXCELLENT TALKS, music was marginal

2nd sacrament meeting... one of three talks was good... .music was much better.... attended Relief Society with the bishop during 2nd block.... Sisters in the Church have my highest admiration. None of us would be here without them.

_____________________________________________________________________

My wife gives me the last word in any argument, "Yes, dear, you are right dear"

I couldn't live without her, everything I am is because of her.

I suppose my main problem is that I'm told that I have selective hearing. (not by my sweetheart, but by others) I can't help it, it's just the way I am.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I used to think I had selective hearing, but now I think I may have some actual hearing loss, because there are times when I just don't understand what people are saying... but it makes for a great deal of humor...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"I couldn't live without her, everything I am is because of her. "

Mahonri- You do realize salvation is an individual thing? That you cannot stand on borrowed light? That one fallen, natural man cannot save another? (These comments bug me. If I had offered this as a prayer, for instance, and it were true, I would be afraid a loving, merciful Heavenly Father might remove this factor from my probation equation. But that's just how I think. We cannot be that attached to ANY earthly thing, imo. Please don't take this personally. It also reminds me of the book Marathon of Faith, where Rex Lee's wife said she felt she could not live without him. Well, guess what?)

Just skimmed the thread... I'll be back.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Sisters in the Church have my highest admiration. None of us would be here without them.

Why? Why does it have to go down one road or the other? Can't we all just be people?

dilbert · Senior Member

It's the fabric of space-time. Trust me, you really don't want to rip a hole in it.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Oh. I really think I do.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hmmm. Well, at face value, the statement does seem to be right... I don't believe anyone would be alive without having had a mother... last I checked, we haven't gotten the artificial womb vats working for growing test tube babies up in.

Of course, the converse holds true too... still gotta have a father to provide one of the key ingredients to that test tube baby... so maybe Brethren in the Church should also have folks highest esteem too.

Of course, if we esteem each other all the while while we're being esteemed by those we're esteeming, well not only would the space-time fabric be torn, but the whole fabric may just fall apart and we'd end up in some weird place where there is a more perfect equality... like maybe Zion...

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Coco:

My wife is NOT my salvation, but without her and Our Savior there can be no exaltation.

Sorry you're bugged.

Doesn't it go without saying that we OWE absolutely everything to Heavenly Father and Our Savior?

For the "here and now", my wife means everything to me.

-- Edited by Mahonri at 06:54, 2007-05-17

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Mahonri: I thought what you said was sweet. I feel the same way about my wife too. I am grateful to have her in my life.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh, it sure is sweet. Sweet potato pie with marshmallows sweet. Syrupy, sticky, can't quite get it out from underneath your fingernails sweet.

On a different thought, sometimes men who have "wronged" their wives in the past are the ones who like to go overboard in public settings praising the heck out of them.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Cocobeem wrote:
On a different thought, sometimes men who have "wronged" their wives in the past are the ones who like to go overboard in public settings praising the heck out of them.

Care to qualify / quantify that statement? How would you clarify that postulation? Would it apply only to normal men, or to men in high position as well?

(FWIW, I am not a big advocate of publicly praising anyone or any group of individuals as we have the tendency to end up putting the person or people up on a pedestal that perhaps is not doing anyone any justice)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I don't know how you want me to clarify that. I can just say I've seen it in different wards I've been in. And I said "sometimes." Like, "sometimes" I will know about a personal situation with a couple and the husband goes on and on in testimony meeting, let's say, about how great his wife is. He's also having moral problems. But since he's so wonderful in public, everyone thinks he's that way all the time. Men in high position are "normal" as far as I've seen, so yes it applies to them, too. Maybe more so, as they have more opportunity to be out there in front of people...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, if I understand correctly, you say based on some specific situations that you personally were aware of (how you were aware of and to what extent you don't indicate, and frankly it is probably best if that is not shared), you doubt the sincerity for which these specific men had in giving that praise, since maybe they were giving it to save face and honor?

Is it safe to extrapolate from that then perhaps as a result, a general feeling is engendered that when any man does this they are just going

to try and make their wife feel great because they are a scum for having done something (great or small) that either hurt or upset her tender nature? Kind of like the 'Oh-I-was-a-bit-too-harsh-on-you-children-there-here-have-a-double-scoop-icecream-cone-to-make-up-for-it' syndrome?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Wow. You really comprehend what I'm saying.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Are you being serious or cynical with your last comment?

Did I actually restate what you were saying, or did I totally miss it?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

No, I'm serious. Almost like you've... been there/done that before...? (That was the razzing part.)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think what Coco is saying, is that whenever she hears a man praise his wife, she assumes that that man has abused his wife. biggrin

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay got ya.

I can't say that I have the same experience. My approach has more been from the how sincere have I really meant something that I've said -- like how grateful am I really by what my actions show when I say how grateful I am ________(fill in the blank).

So, I tend to question less the sincerity of others saying it (until it gets sickening sweet or to the point I wonder if they really understand what they are saying) if I know the individual is indeed a good person. I think that someday it would be nice to be at the point where I can emulate whatever good thing it is they have mastered that allows them to say such things in total and humble sincerity.

edited one word and one piece of punctuation in second paragraph to make better sense, as it ended up sounding like I was saying the opposite of what I meant.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 12:42, 2007-05-18

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Okay, people. It's more like this--

Here comes Brother I do weird things when our 15 yo babysitter is around. What do ya' bet his whole "testimony" is going to be praising his wife? Think he'll mention Jesus at all? What about Pres. Hinckley? Okay, he'll use the phrase "When I was on my mission..." and he'll praise his wife. Let's watch...

I don't draw the conclusion based on the testimony. I know stuff ahead of time and then listen to see if the hypothesis works. Quit twisting things around.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

coco: I'm so glad I don't live in your brain... biggrin

sometimes my wife does this sort of thing, and I ask her not to tell me all the extra stuff. I believe anyone who sticks with the church can eventually change and better themselves, and so knowing their sordid history only colors my ability to forgive and see them as the children of God they are.

IMO, I just don't need the baggage, and it's unfair to the person.

Then again that's probably due to my own filthiness that I believe such things...

It is interesting that the Savior says that sinners are the ones that will appreciate him more, than those who've not sinned. Perhaps it is the same for wives, Coco... those who actually love and cherish their wives are those who recognize they have at one point or another taken her for granted and want to make things better.

Perhaps we should all take the Savior's attitude and accept the praise as what it is...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"Perhaps we should all take the Savior's attitude and accept the praise as what it is..."

That's our downfall as fallen people. We do not see things as they really are, unless it is revealed to us. The Savior always takes people's words for what they are, whether truthful, hypocritical, whatever... He knows it all.

For what it's worth, I don't do this as much as it sounds like. In fact, off the top of my head, I can only think of 3 men that I've thought about it this way, in... like 10 years. Most of the time I just listen and try to get something out of it that will help me.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

This thread has gone from interesting to bizzare.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Nah, just went from mildly bizzare to painfully bizzare to back to somewhere close to moderately TMI bizzare...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Coco: You bring up an interesting subject. It is interesting to me how a couple bad examples can color the way we view all others... we see them through someone else's bad example.

My EQ Pres was sharing a story the other day, about how he was talking with a construction worker who knew he was mormon and said, "Yah, I knew a mormon, you guys can really drink! I knew this mormon guy, and BOY could he chug the hard liquor!" He went on and on about how this mormon could drink.
One bad example had colored this guy's opinion of mormons to something opposite of what we believe in.

I had something similar happen to me, only the guy I was talking with was talking about a mormon girl who was... ahem... a slut (to put it nicely)... I had to explain what it meant to be active or innactive... Still he insisted that she went to church every week or was really into her church... but she just liked to do things that... well... anyhow didn't comply with the Law of Chastity.

Sometimes it's hard to tell what is a trend of human nature or an exception to the rule...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Mahonri- What's bizzare about it? Unless you mean your spelling...

Yes, I think sometimes it's hard to shake a couple bad examples... After all, we remember them and we tend to draw similarities. It's not easy to look at every case in a very objective way without memories/experiences popping up.

People have very different life-experiences which shape them in various ways. But, what can you do about that?

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cocobeem wrote:
On a different thought, sometimes men who have "wronged" their wives in the past are the ones who like to go overboard in public settings praising the heck out of them.

We used to have one guy who actually sort of always bragged about the time he apologized to his wife for all the times he cheated on her (he would do this when it got all 'I wuv my wifey-pooh' in EQ). It was like his trump card in the wife loving department.

Thank heavens the finally sent him away to young mens. biggrin

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Dude!! That's the guy I'm talkin' about!

Young Mens, huh? Nice one. rolleyes

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hoss... your stories scare me.

--Ray