Ethical Disability.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ethical Disability.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Dilemma? Sounds like the hospital broke the law. If the law was broken there should be a punishment metted out.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So if you had a mentally disabled child who would never mature mentally beyond the age of say 8 years old, would you consider doing something like the parents of this child, who have done everything to stunt the child's hormonal development so that they don't develop physically into an adult?

--Ray

crazymom5 · Senior Member

My sister has a 19 yr old severely austic daughter. My niece can say maybe 10 words and half of them you really need to know what she is trying to say to understand her. My niece is also bigger than my sister and a lot stronger and goes into rages sometimes. My sister would never have even considered doing something like what these parents considered.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Ditto, crazymom. We have a 16 yr old severely autistic son. He is 100% nonverbal. He is bigger than mom, and will likely end up larger than me. He is better than he was, but he used to get quite physical in rages at times, and has hurt every member of the family intentionally or unintentionally at times.

Despite that, we would not have considered doing anything like this to him.

Not passing any judgement on these people, because unless you have actually been in the situation of being a primary caregiver for a mentally disabled child who for the most part is physically okay, you really have no idea what you will be up against day to day.

But, it seems like the state could show some common sense and compassion for their situation. But, the hospital and medical professionals doing this without legal sanction, despite it being the parents wishes, is wholely inappropriate.

But, on the other hand, we as a culture do it all the time to our pets... spay and neuter your cats and dogs so that they never are capable of "filling the measure of their creation"... in fact if you don't do it, then you're being irresponsible...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I just worry where this could end up. I can see why the parents did this but it was wrong for the hospital to break the law. What other sorts of things are we prepaired to allow to happen to our weakest such as our elderly or infants? There are those in our society that advocate puting the elderly down because they are a drain on the system. There are those that say parents who kill newborns shouldn't be charged with murder because the baby really doesn't have the value of a full adult. There are also those that advocate making it legal to put down a disabled child. I worry that if we allow "proceedures" like this because it is convenient that we will eventually allow these other things. I know there will be those that disagree with me or point out some other inconsistency in society but that's what I believe.

I had a great uncle who was who had a mental handicap. When he was a young man he was downright mean. My great grand mother had to whip him constantly. Back in those days they really didn't understand what was going on. He had limited function as an adult and lived in a small house next to my grandfather. He was a very large man. As he grew older he didn't have the violence problems and spent a lot of time with us kids. He was like a grandfather to us and as little kids, we didn't even notice his disability. We just loved our great uncle. He spent all the major holidays at our house and we would go trick or treating to his house. He would give us banannas or whatever he had. Years after he past away I heard the stories of how difficult he was as a child, teen, and adult hood and I almost couldn't believe it because it was as if I was hearing stories about someone else. I wonder what would have happened if my great grandparents had made a decision like the parents in Washington. Would I have had that blessing in my life? I can't speak for everyone. Obviously there are those who have already posted that are dealing with a dissabled child right now. I cannot understand at all the challenges that must entail. But I'm glad I had that time with my big great uncle even though he was basically a kid himself in a grown man's body.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Medications do wonders for individuals with mental disabilities. It all depends on getting the right combination and dosage that works for the individual.

Once that has been determined, they are far less likely to hurt themselves or those around them. A lot of the time when an autistic child goes into a rage, it is not because they are being mean. It is because they are suffering from lack of meaningful sensory input or they can't make any sort of order of the sensory input they are registering. Because of this problem of not being able to perceive the world the same way as us "normal" people, little changes in their routine can act as a trigger to cause violent or destructive behavior. The key is to learn what the individual can handle and what he/she can't. Then to work with them from there.

Just a few years ago, the amount of knowledge was not as great as it is now. In past generations, it was not uncommon for individuals like my son to eventually be committed to an asylum.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Interesting. I heard this topic on local talk radio, and there were many parents of such children who called in saying that the parents of this child were making a good decision and they approved. My gut instinct was to take your approach, Cat, but now I'm not so sure. What about the possible physical harm he can cause to himself and others? This technology has not always been available, and now it can be controlled almost entirely with hormonal drugs. What benefit is gained to see him physically mature, when mentally he is not?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 21:22, 2007-05-10

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, what if medical science comes up with a wondrous cure for such conditions? It's not out of the range of the possible. Besides, who's to say that there aren't other drawbacks to stunting someone's growth? Maybe it will cause severe health problems later for them in life.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Precisely, Arbilad... and, then of course for those of us who have the fulness of the gospel, we have an accounting to give for the stewardship over a child entrusted to you. The paradigm that doctors have of "Do No Harm" comes to mind... We don't know what tests / trials the disabled individual has slated for them, so elective surgery like this may not necessarily be in the individual's best interest from an eternal perspective.

But, as said, I pass no judgement on the parents. I don't know their situation, but in some respects it could certainly be said to have the appearance of being selfish and more for their convenience.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I just think you can't leave such things out of the realm of possibilities, and respect the inspiration and choice of others in this regard. I don't want to state anything negative about those who choose one way or the other, but I don't see it as a bad thing, to keep such children smaller physically as a means of protection and to enable parents greater ability to care for them.

It's an interesting question though. It raises interesting questions too, like what are the consequences of giving someone who is illprepared or incapable of using it, a fullgrown body. It strikes me as the sort of question one might have positted back in the premortal existence.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:

I just think you can't leave such things out of the realm of possibilities, and respect the inspiration and choice of others in this regard. I don't want to state anything negative about those who choose one way or the other, but I don't see it as a bad thing, to keep such children smaller physically as a means of protection and to enable parents greater ability to care for them.

It's an interesting question though. It raises interesting questions too, like what are the consequences of giving someone who is illprepared or incapable of using it, a fullgrown body. It strikes me as the sort of question one might have positted back in the premortal existence.

--Ray

I doubt that the operations they performed would prevent her from growing physically. They essentially just spayed her. I don't believe they totally removed the ovaries, and if they did, that could cause other health problems down the road. Think about it. A guy who gets castrated doesn't stop growing. He still grows, just not under the influence of testosterone, so he ends up kind of as a butterball turkey.

As to the second paragraph, that would have to be taken up with The Lord in my opinion. Short of that, it could be construed as inferring God made a mistake...