Need some strengthening, having a hard time with something

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Need some strengthening, having a hard time with something

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I don't have a simple answer for you Val, but I can empathize with you on the sentiment expressed. I would not say you are bitter, simply not sure how to reconcile what seems to be an inconsistency based on the level of understanding you currently have.

But, is it okay if I share my perspective with you, how I have had to come to a reconciliation similar to what you are seeking?

My older son just turned 16 four months ago. He is almost as tall as me. He has the potential of being a very handsome man. He inspires much love in those he interacts with. But, as far as mortality goes, he doesn't have a lot of hope for achieving much. He will never be an Eagle Scout. He will never be baptised or ordained to the priesthood or serve a mission or marry (let alone marry in the temple). He will never go on to make a meaningful contribution to society as meaningful contributions are defined. At least in his current condition.

He is severely autistic. Much of his social / emotional / cognitave development did not progress beyond that of an 18 month old toddler. He doesn't even speak. It was a bittersweet, humbling moment for us when we were told by our Bishop a number of years ago that our living son qualified as being listed as Not Accountable on Church Records. Bitter in that we had to come to grips that much of the hopes and dreams we had for him are on hold until The Lord sees fit to open the way for him... Sweet in that we had the assurance that he is safe from Satan's grasp and is assured entry into the Celestial Kingdom... Humbling to realize that regardless of our weaknesses as parents and individuals, this son of God was entrusted to us in mortality and that someone knows our potential far better than we do.

That doesn't answer your core question though, does it. Why are some of us born without accountability to law, or die before reaching the age of being accountable, and others of us are not? I don't know. I won't give any pat answers, such as so-in-so was more valiant in the pre-existence or they are so pure that they could not withstand the same pressures of mortal existence and Satan's opposition as those of us who are accountable and live through the daily grind day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, can until we are called home (hopefully) to rest...

But I do think we each may have had a hand in choosing our individual lot in mortal life as we took counsel from our Father. Maybe some of these individuals who look like they have it easy in the spiritual scheme of things chose various missions in mortality that involved them sacrificing the fullness of the mortal experience the rest of us enjoy... maybe they chose it out of love for us so that we could be more humble and faithful to our Father... maybe they are "bouncing off the walls" waiting for their resurrection so that they can experience that fullness of joy we get to have, which they only got or get a taste of by obtaining a physical body for whatever period of time they were alloted...

Val, I guess the only thing I can recommend is don't try to reason it out with your intellect. It is truely a thing that can only be understood spiritually. We not graded against each other, only against ourselves. And I think The Lord and our Father are a lot more generous a grader of each of us individually than we are of ourselves. For a practical recommendation, might I suggest you seek out and spend ample time with some of these brothers and sisters who are not accountable... learn about the love they have and the love our Father and The Savior have for them. I promise you that as you do this, you will be reminded of how universally and freely that love is given, including yourself. I think you will find that we're not all that different... just a different set of conditions we're blessed with for our mortal sojourn.

Remember, The Lord doesn't ask us about our ability or inability, he only asks us about our availability, and once we have proven our dependability, he blesses us with the capability.

Faith, brother! Faith!

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I appreciate it CH.

I was just thinking of it as those that do not have to experience mortality at all in the sense that someone who lives here. Your son is going through it, though he is not accountable, he is still experiencing the pains of mortality. Christ Himself came and endured the pains of mortality, and yet for some reason others do not. Supposedly, those who die in infancy don't need to be tested, but there is more that just testing in the spiritual sense. They will never know what it is to have your body eaten away by cancer, arthritis pain shooting through your feet bringing you to tears, to hold a dead child in your arms, blindness, poverty, etc.

Christ came and bore all our sicknesses and weaknesses so that He could succor His people. Joseph was told in Liberty jail that these things he suffered were for his own learning and experience. And yet, there are untold numbers who have not or very little experienced these things, who "know" what it means to suffer through them.

In some ways this seems like destination, not fore-ordination. I just don't get what exempts them from a lifetime of hurt and pain. It is like telling one child, you get everything and will have to worry about nothing, and telling the other child that you get all the misery and pain that can be dished out.

I am not trying to be contrarian, CH, this has just always bothered me, and I have not been having a good time of things as of late. When I read that article it just set me off. Some might say that the same could be said of others who are worse off than what you have, that is true. But some avoid it all together. Maybe it is all just faith again, I don't know, but faith I don't really lack, it just seems rather cruel to give one child a complete pass and to let others have the travails of this life.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I understand. One thing I have learned through my experience is that we really do not know what another soul is asked to endure.

In times that are not too far gone from the present, it was not unusual for one or more children in a family to die as infants or as young children. In our day, culture and society, technology has now made that the exception as opposed to the rule. There are areas of the world, though, that this is not the case. So, unless we have personally lost a child, it is really hard to intellectually reconcile the doctrine with the concept of an even playing field since God says He is no respector of persons.

I'm sure that those who die in infancy still felt their set of pains, and like all those who have lived and are now dead, feel whatever pains there are of having the body and spirit seperated. And Christ has suffered their pains and infirmities as well.

I found this section of the article interesting: The Lord will grant unto these children the privilege of all the sealing blessings which pertain to the exaltation. We were all mature spirits before we were born, and the bodies of little children will grow after the resurrection to the full stature of the spirit, and all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience, the same as if they had lived to maturity and received them on the earth. The Lord is just and will not deprive any person of a blessing, simply because he dies before that blessing can be received. It would be manifestly unfair to deprive a little child of the privilege of receiving all the blessings of exaltation in the world to come simply because it died in infancy. Children who die in childhood will not be deprived of any blessing. When they grow, after the resurrection, to the full maturity of the spirit, they will be entitled to all the blessings which they would have been entitled to had they been privileged to tarry here and receive them.
Note, I don't think they get a free pass, as it were. They still have to obtain the same blessings the same way we do... by obedience. The only difference is, as stated a little later in the article, is that for whatever reason
Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted.
I take that to mean they are simply spared the influence of Satan, not that they are incapable of exercising agency freely.

It kind of reminds me of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16).

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I didn't read the article, just your quote. This topic has caused me pause as well. My first reaction was - well, Joseph Fielding had differing opinions on several things. If it wasn't James Talmage, it was Bruce McConkie... but anyway...

It doesn't jive with the Plan that some will escape proving themselves to God. So my belief is that no one will escape this, but in some way, they will have to do so and no one will be granted a free ticket, so to speak.

If infants go straightway to the Celestial Kingdom, there are some that would think relinquishing their own salvation in order to unconditionally "save" their children and others would be a worthy thing indeed.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I just saw the context of the quote from Joseph Smith you quoted from the article Val. I interpret that to mean nothing more than there are some subset of brothers and sisters who had progressed sufficiently in the pre-existence that they did not need all the same sort of mortal experiences and trials as the rest of us.

Yeah, from our limited vantage point, it may appear to be unfair. But, I trust Him to exercise the ultimate fairness available via justice and mercy. It would not be just for Him to require those who may have already proven themselves sufficiently to take the class when they "tested" out of it, just as it would not be merciful to us to have to take the honors section of the class if we aren't prepared for it.

Sorry, I know, not very good analogy is it?

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Kind of makes you feel like a victim of your own stupidity? How I feel, especially since I was not smart enough to do what I wanted and ended up doing something that I never had an interest in. I appreciate it though.

I imagine it will be fair, just doesn't feel that way or feel right. Kind of like some were spiritually less progressed? To me it just begs the question of why, why should some receive more there than others, kind of like taking the kids from the short bus and sending them off on their own and giving the gifted kids a leg up. The kids didn't choose to ride the short bus, don't want to but were just stuck there with a pat on the head and good luck, hope you make it and the gifted kids, well come on in, you just to good and pure to be with "those guys". Seems like taking those that need the most help (if that is the way it is, seems like it) and leaving them more to chance that those that may not have need as much help. Like a rich guy who then wins the lottery on top of being rich already.

Sorry, I'm just frustrated, on top of how crappy I have felt, it just kind of makes me feel left out, like I was just not up to snuff. Things have not been great lately and when I read that article, it just felt like another swift kick to the crotch and a poke in the eye. I do appreciate the efforts at boosting my spirit.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Valhalla wrote:

Sorry, I'm just frustrated, on top of how crappy I have felt, it just kind of makes me feel left out, like I was just not up to snuff.

Val, you are never left out...

The infinite nature received from His Father gave Jesus power to perform the Atonement, to suffer for the sins of all. The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus not only took upon Himself our sins but also our pains, afflictions, and temptations. Alma also explains that Jesus took upon Himself our sicknesses, death, and our infirmities. (See Alma 7:1113.) This He did, Alma said, so that His "bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know . . . how to succor his people" (Alma 7:12).The prophet Abinadi further states that "when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed" (Mosiah 15:10). Abinadi then identifies the Savior's seed as the prophets and those who follow them. For many years I thought of the Savior's experience in the garden and on the cross as places where a large mass of sin was heaped upon Him. Through the words of Alma, Abinadi, Isaiah, and other prophets, however, my view has changed. Instead of an impersonal mass of sin, there was a long line of people, as Jesus felt "our infirmities" (Hebrews 4:15), "[bore] our griefs, . . . carried our sorrows . . . [and] was bruised for our iniquities" (Isaiah 53:45).The Atonement was an intimate, personal experience in which Jesus came to know how to help each of us.The Pearl of Great Price teaches that Moses was shown all the inhabitants of the earth, which were "numberless as the sand upon the sea shore" (Moses 1:28). If Moses beheld every soul, then it seems reasonable that the Creator of the universe has the power to become intimately acquainted with each of us. He learned about your weaknesses and mine. He experienced your pains and sufferings. He experienced mine. I testify that He knows us. He understands the way in which we deal with temptations. He knows our weaknesses. But more than that, more than just knowing us, He knows how to help us if we come to Him in faith.

From Elder Merrill J. Bateman, A Pattern for All, October 2005 Conference http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-559-23,00.html

Let the peace of that witness have place in your soul as you work through the current pain and frustration! smile

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 12:58, 2007-04-16

arbilad · Head Chef

I can't say that I have an answer as to why some are guaranteed the Celestial Kingdom while others aren't. As with many things, I imagine that this is a question of perspective. For instance, when our baby was just born it was hard for our older son to understand why initially we spent all our time with the baby and less with him. The baby isn't better than him, but had a particular need for parental attention. Our older son did not become less worthy of attention just because the baby was born.
A couple of things unrelated to the topic: Valhalla, have you tried glucosomine chondroitin? It is available in most vitamin stores, and even in Sams Club. It really helps some people cure their arthritis pain. It may or may not help you, but the most you'd lose is $20 for a bottle of the stuff.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

So... if some are guaranteed the Celestial Kingdom... we are apparently not all born with a clean slate here. Something from the pre-existence carries over. How do we reconcile that with the second article of faith?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

All are born with a "clean slate", as you refer to it. But, that doesn't mean all are stamped out of the same mold as far as spiritual progress. Christ was a god and member of the Godhead in the pre-existence, wasn't He? But, yet even He still had to be born and receive His physical body, partially in order to fulfill His foreordained mortal ministry and partially to become perfected in the sense of being the first resurrected exalted being from our Father's children. I think all that is safely inferred is that just as each of us are at a different level of spiritual development here on earth, each of us was likely on a different level of spiritual development there. Isn't this kind of what The Lord was talking about to Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Val,

I think many of us go through this... just last week my wife was saying... "I wonder what it is like on other worlds where they don't have to be tested like we do?"

While we all start with a clean slate here, how we start and many of the blessings we enjoy here are based upon our faithfulness in the pre-existence.

This is what Alma said about High Priests here. (And how few there are in this world comparitivley speaking)

Alma 13:3
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordainedbeing called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.
Alma 13:4
4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.
Alma 13:5
5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared
Alma 13:6
6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest
Alma 13:7
7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things
Alma 13:8
8 Now they were ordained after this mannerbeing called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end
Alma 13:9
9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.
Alma 13:10
10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;
Alma 13:11
11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.
Alma 13:12
12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.
Alma 13:13
13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

....................................................................................................................................

The fact that you are a member of the Church tells you that you are one of the choice ones that came to this, the most wicked of all worlds, where the people would actually crucify their God!

We all have weaknesses, but we all have the potential to come to know God and to have Him as our friend. Those that give up, or leave the Church simply seal their fate forever.

God loves you and me. He loves broken things.

When Peter started walking toward the Savior and began to sink he cried out to our Savior to save him. The Savior responded to his request. That's what all of us need to do.

When the wind and the waves are upon us, we should never jump ship!!! Instead we call upon our Savior and He can command the wind and the waves to be still. And then, we too can be still and know that He is God!

Hang in there.

M

-- Edited by Mahonri at 17:02, 2007-04-16

arbilad · Head Chef

I get the impression from these posts that this life is just a snapshot of our eternal existence. Some attained a sufficient level of righteousness before they came here. Christ had achieved godhood. Some of us are taking longer to get there, so we're going through the trials of this life and being tempted by Satan.
BTW, you can still go wrong even without being tempted by Satan. For instance, I've heard that when Satan will be bound during the millennium it will be like a dog being tied to a tree; he's not going to get loose and harm you, but if you're stupid enough to go near him you're still gonna get in trouble.
Also, I edited Valhalla's post to make the link shorter. If this upsets you, Valhalla, let me know and I'll change it back.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Perhaps I am remembering wrongly, but didn't Joseph Smith teach that those children who died before the age of accountability would still have to go through a mortal probation during the millenium? if that's the case, it doesn't seem like an automatic ticket to the CK. It seems that they will also get to exercise agency in mortality.

Dyany · Senior Member

I don't think we are necessarily born with a clean slate, but little children are alive in and through Christ, he atones for their sins same as he does for ours. At least that's the way I interpret it. E.g., I've seen 4 year olds be 'bad' -- willfully disobedient. But they are not accountable. It's swallowed up in Christ.

Val, I'm sorry you're struggling right now. I don't know what to tell you because I have a hard time seeing things from your perspective. In the hereafter, we are going to be divided by what we've done here AND in the pre-existence (since we've already passed that first test well enough). Why would it be any different from the first estate to this one? Depending on how good we are in this estate, we go to one of three kingdoms. Is that a respecter of persons? Is that 'unfair' to those who make it to the telestial kingdom? Are they on the 'short bus'? I don't think so. If there is one thing I know it is that God is fair, he takes everything into account. Thus all of his children were tested in the first estate as well, ending in 3 degrees -- losing their first estate, needing more testing, or being given a 'pass'. They don't get to suffer the same things as us, but they don't NEED to -- just like I don't need to suffer your trials and you don't need to suffer mine. Does that mean we weren't as good? Yup, I'm afraid it does. But it's all swallowed up in Christ, and we still have the opportunity for exaltation.

As to how that reconciles with the 2nd article of faith -- that article says nothing about innocence at birth. It just says we're not accountable for ADAM'S transgression. We're plenty accountable for our own. Hence in the preexistence were the 'noble and great ones', hence we have foreordination, hence we are all put into exactly the circumstances needed to 'bridge the gap'.

So don't feel bad. We're all imperfect here on earth. But Christ covered that for us.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

When you look at others with their lands and gold (and spiritual uber-greatness),
Think that God has promised you his wealth untold...

Count your many blessings every doubt will fly...

And you will be singing as the days go by...

--

Any principle of intelligence we gain in this life will rise with us in the life to come.

Sure there will be many innocent and pure intelligences in the next life, perhaps they're garanteed salvation, and they won't experience the same struggles you have, Val, but neither will they know with as much certainty the nature of good and evil, and what is required to fight it--if you stay true to the faith.

Don't let the devil deceive you.

There are many souls that are allowed to STAY on this earth to work for the good of all and the salvation of this world, that are noble, and valiant and good, and powerful and were as Abraham saw, "Noble and Great".

It is a temptation to compare ourselves to others and wonder what we did or didn't do in the premortal life to "deserve" this or that. I think it is a source of great deception that the devil can use to distract us from our faith if we let it.

Just as John the Beloved was allowed to be translated and Peter went on to die for Christ we all have a different fate, with different opportunities. Sometimes we forget to celebrate as we wait for the next challenge, but life is a celebration. All of us shouted for joy for this opportunity... and chances are we also had some choice in what part we'd play here.

Who knows what other worlds are out there, and whether they are spiritual cakewalks? All I know is that this life is a sufficient test for me. It has humbled me to the core. It has broken my heart. My spirit is contrite. I hope it will remain so, so that in all the glories I never forget the great gift and sacrifice that Jesus Christ paid for me and my sins.

It may be that I am just a dog under the table of Christ's feast, but I rejoice in the crumbs--for they are life.

--Ray

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

#1 We know so little about the premortal existence, and how it affects this life. I think speculation is fruitless.

#2 Who said God had to be fair?

Seriously, God is God. He can do what He wants. If he chooses to call an infant home to Him, that is His perogative. The assurance that the child will enjoy all of Heaven's blessings is a solace to the grieving parents. The rest of us get to submit to God's will for us--which is to go through the wonderful, awful journey that is life.

And the deceased child misses out on life. Life is still precious and marvelous to experience. I wouldn't have wanted to miss it.

#3 I second the reference to the parable of the servants in the vineyard.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Shiz... no speculation about the preexistence... just read the verses in Alma 13 that reference them... .there is no speculation about it there either. Those who become High Priests here had faith there... that's what it says.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I appreciate everyone's replies. This whole thing is just something that bugs me to no end, then couple that with all the crap that life seems to dish out, sometimes I just get sick of it all. I just have a very hard time reconciling why some get a pass because they were too pure or didn't need to be tested. Yet if this life is about gaining experience and great people came here like Christ, Joseph Smith, Abraham, etc, then others don't have to go through much or very little. It is like the guy given an honorary PhD vs. the guy that earned his way to the PhD.

Also, those of us who are here, we run the risk of losing salvation, and on top of it suffer the pain and hell of this world. Weigh that against automatic salvation and avoidance of all the hurt of this world, given a choice (if there was one), I could not imagine choosing living an entire life here and not a quick return ticket home. Maybe it is my own lack of understanding, it just seems like favoring one child over another. Maybe I am impatient, maybe frustrated, I just hate having to chalk so much up to "I guess we will just have to find out later."

I do worry about that scripture that talks of men's hearts failing them, I worry that is me at times. It seems difficult, truly no good deed goes unpunished, and nice guys do finish last. It seems like if I do what I am supposed to things would be better, maybe they are and I just don't see it, but it is a little less than motivating when you do what you should and try and it still turns to crap. When I see that so many will never have to do this or just simply go through the crap in this world and go straight to paradise/CK and others are left with "best of luck to you!", it just eats away at my since of fairness.

I just feel tired of the fight, tired of the struggle, wonder where happiness really is, the daily routine seems so pointless, nothing is really ever achieved, you get up/work/home and work/bed wash rinse and repeat, you wake up 20+years later and wonder if this is all there is...not really achieved anything, at least what I wanted...the world is a cesspool...have nothing that I really ever wanted on all levels not talking about material goods...then one day you die and if you did not screw it up to bad, maybe make it to heaven, then see the guy who never had to wade through this pile of crap sitting there with a smile saying welcome back, I think I would want to belt him.

As to those growing up as children in the Millenium, how can they ever know what many of us have ever had to go through? Growing up with no tempation, no sin, wonderful people under Christ's rule, great spouses, obedience, etc.

I know I am sounding negative, nice to be able to let it out some. The thing is, I will still keep plugging along, still hoping. I will quit whining now. Sometimes I think of what C3PO in said in Star Wars, it is our lot in life to suffer. Sometimes I try and go to my happy place and it helps, it is peaceful, nothing bad, people are nice, it is serene, nobody wants anything from you, you're loved, maybe some day it will be that way.

-- Edited by Valhalla at 14:44, 2007-04-17

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Val,

I think there are times that all of us feel just like you do.

When I think of what the Prophet Joseph Smith had to endure in his short 39 years on earth and how relatively easy I've had it, it worries me.

Yes, I've had my share of hardship and trial, and I imagine I'm going to have more.

Someday when we can see how the war in heaven was fought and what we did there I think it will be an eye opening experience.

When my eldest was very young, and the viel had not closed for him, he told my wife and I some amazing things.

One of those was about his cousin who had died as an infant... he had been born and died over 10 years before our son was born, but he knew all about him. One of the things that stands out most prominently in what he said about his was this, "Jim was one of the most obedient of Heavenly Father's children. He did whatever Christ said".

Call it pre-existence speculation but I heard it with my own ears and saw it with my own eyes.

There were those also in the pre existence who didn't want to have to walk by faith, nor pass through the trials we are called to pass through. They wanted it "fair" for everyone... and they never got bodies nor the opportunit to progress.

The simple fact that you are a member of the Church speaks volumes about you.

Don't worry. Be happy. You are loved and as we learn to love like God loves, it all ends up being worth it.

Again, Hang in there,

Mahonri

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Valhalla wrote:

I just feel tired of the fight, tired of the struggle, wonder where happiness really is, the daily routine seems so pointless, nothing is really ever achieved, you get up/work/home and work/bed wash rinse and repeat, you wake up 20+years later and wonder if this is all there is...not really achieved anything, at least what I wanted...the world is a cesspool...have nothing that I really ever wanted on all levels not talking about material goods...then one day you die and if you did not screw it up to bad, maybe make it to heaven, then see the guy who never had to wade through this pile of crap sitting there with a smile saying welcome back, I think I would want to belt him.

I know I am sounding negative, nice to be able to let it out some. The thing is, I will still keep plugging along, still hoping. I will quit whining now. Sometimes I think of what C3PO in said in Star Wars, it is our lot in life to suffer. Sometimes I try and go to my happy place and it helps, it is peaceful, nothing bad, people are nice, it is serene, nobody wants anything from you, you're loved, maybe some day it will be that way.

Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.

--from "The Fellowship of The Rings" just after the battle with the Orcs in which Boromir falls and the Fellowship breaks (and Gandalf has ostensibly already fallen in the Mines of Moria saving the others), as Frodo is standing on the shore getting ready to set out on his own.

I imagine it isn't too unrealistic to make the correlation that since we are told in scripture we all shouted with joy in the pre-existence about the opportunity we all (all of us who kept our first estate*) would receive to come here to earth, right now, it is kind of like we were all hyped as kids to sing "I Hope They Call Me On A Mission" up until the point we are actually out on the mission and find out how hard it is and we start singing "I hope they call me off my mission."

But, we carry on and make it through, and regardless of if we baptized no one or baptized hundreds, in the end run all that matters is if the Lord has accepted of our sacrifice and we have received that personal confirmation of His acceptance.

That pattern in micro has helped me maintain focus (and a bit of comic relief) at times when things have been tough for me too.

To paraphrase something George Durrant once said, it is really sad when people don't realize how sad things really are... Because things are really sad. It is also really sad when people don't realize how funny things really are... Because things are really funny. Anyway, he was talking about perspective, and using the example of the pioneers crossing the plains to the Salt Lake Valley. Some individual wrote a letter to a church leader saying they wouldn't go west because it was just too far to ask anyone to walk. The response from that leader to the individual was essentially "Sure, it is a long journey, but you aren't being asked to walk the whole distance at once... just 15 miles a day."

Hang in there... remember, you only have to go 15 miles a day.

*as to the keeping our first estate and free salvation... well, everyone who is ever born gets free salvation. It is because we kept that first estate. We all are saved from physical death, regardless of what we do or how long we live in mortality, be it a few minutes or hundreds of years. But, the right to exaltation has to be earned by each individual. Some may have been further along that path in the first estate than others is all. Doesn't mean they were better or others worse. We all kept our first estate, and therefore all have that same potential, regardless of the individual tests, trials, and foreordinations we were endowed with or the final project assigned in our Mortality Prep classes (). That gives me a lot of hope, actually, to know that The Lord believes in me enough to have given me that opportunity to become as "good" as the "AP" students! Just thought I'd put that reminder out, salvation and exaltation are two different concepts.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 11:20, 2007-04-17

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I will keep going, sometimes it just really gets to me, the constant fight, the struggle. I know we don't have an answer, just hope credit is given our way for having walked the line when others were not required to do so. I am okay, thanks for the support. I think this will just have to remain unresolved for me for now and try and not care about the others, shove this concern back down and try and keep it there.

I do like the Frodo analogy. I like Gandalf's reply, like so much in life you don't have a choice, well, you can be selfish and irresponsible and drop everything and take care of yourself, or you can eat the crap sandwich and keep moving on. Pretty much how I feel. Hopefully I can shake the melancholy and change the frowny face to a smile! That is what I have always done, guess I always will. I know I am not unique in this, not saying misery loves company, just gotten to me.

Thanks for the push forward, thanks for the favor, brethern and sistern.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Oh, and here is just a personal speculation based on what a couple others have said... If it is actually so that those who have died as infants will physically mature after they are resurrected in the Millenium (being raised by their parents who are deemed righteous enough to do so)... well, think about this for a minute. If they are going through that physical maturation process in the Millenium when Satan is bound because no one will heed his influence, wouldn't it make sense then for the promise to be made that they will be heirs of exaltation? It is known by The Lord that they will not choose contrary to His will in anything. They will still exercise agency, but they are beyond the grasp of Satan because they give him no place, just as those who live and are born in the Millenium... just as all those who lived in the Nephite civilization for 2 full generations after His appearing to them... just as all of us who repent of our sins and are washed clean by The Savior's Atonement will... I guess the only place where that speculation doesn't work, now that I think about it, is that they are already resurrected beings, and we're resurrected to the glory we have attained. Oh well, nevermind...

Anyway, just a thought...

ETA -- and sometimes ya just got to remember to season that crap sandwich a bit so it is a bit more palatible...

When you aren't feeling good physically for an extended period of time, it can do a number on ya all around. Don't beat yourself up about it. When you get to that point, remember to start looking for the good around you... Remember the Thirteenth Article of Faith "...we have endured many things and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 17:13, 2007-04-17

Randy · Senior Member

Opinions only for what they are worth:

Each of us is a separate project for Heavenly Father. Each of us is unique. Our needs are unique. Our path to exaltation is unique. Each of us has a different mission to achieve.

We were not sent to earth as billions of identical beings. Each of us is as old as eternity. Each of us, when came to mortality, brought with us millenia of experience from the premortal world. Each of us had a unique experience. Those old spirits were each formed from material (intelligences) that has always existed, but those intelligences were also each unique.

The differences between one intelligence and another were not determined by God. They could not have been determined by God, because God did not make those intelligences. But each intelligence was unique.

Because each of us is unique, it only makes sense that the path to exaltation is different for each. True, each of us must come through Christ. When I say there are differing paths, I don't mean that there is any answer other than Christ. But the details of our lives will be different.

One of the most important lessons that we need to learn in this life is that there is nothing to be gained by comparing our experiences in this life with the experiences of others to see how we stack up, to see if we are being treated fairly. It is not a lesson that comes quickly. It is a lesson that may well require the whole of our probationary experience.

If I am less beautiful than my peers, or make less money, or find that my greater obedience to some commandments leads to less apparent rewards than others receive for much less obedience, that is all irrelevant. I am a unique project for God, and a unique project for myself.

Some of the choicest spirits were set apart to only receive a body and then go on to the next life. Others of the choicest spirits were set apart to live full lives on this world, to be an example and a teacher for others. These people will faithfully obey God's commandments, repent when it is necessary, receive the ordinances of salvation, and in due course receive all that the Father hath, and all suffering will be swallowed up in the joy of their receipt of God's richest blessings.

One of the New Testament parables regards an employer who pays all workers the same wage whether they worked one hour or twelve. Although the hourly rate differs, the Lord teaches that if each worker receives the pay that the employer agreed to pay them, then what is it to them of others received the same pay for fewer hours. I think that this is a parable well worth pondering over.

We're going to learn, when life is done, that no person who has received Eternal Life will wish that he had been able to trade lives with another.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I get bothered by inequality all the time... Now that I'm in the EQ Presidency... I wonder more and more, why can't everyone have a hometeacher like me? But then if we did, we wouldn't need church services... :)

--Ray

Dyany · Senior Member

Val, your depression reminds me of me. I have struggled with clinical depression for years. It warps your thinking, and that's frustrating -- believe me, I've had enough "this isn't fair and nothing ever goes right" warp outs to know! If this persists, you might want to talk to your bishop about seeking professional help. Just a thought.

Otherwise, I liked your school analogy, with it seeming like some get a 'free' PhD. It's not like that. It's more like this: some kids were really diligent in high school. They took outside classes, did all sorts of outside tests, and even wrote a doctoral dissertation. Wow! Technically they are qualified for the PhD, even though they haven't actually attended college. Should it be denied them because they haven't had the experience of going to college? I don't think so. Of course, when you are IN college, especially when you can't remember anything BEFORE college, it doesn't seem fair. But the dues have been paid. I know this because God IS just, or else He would cease to be God.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss the depression at all. Trust me, you don't have to feel this way.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Dyany,

I assume that you are referring to Alma 42, where it says that mercy cannot rob justice, and that the "works of justice" could not be destroyed, else God would cease to be God. The context is referring to the just punishment for sin. The judgments of God are just (Mosiah 29:12, among others). But this does not mean "fair" to our mortal view. Remember Job:

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? (Job 4:17)

I continue to assert that God does not have to be what we consider "fair."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

But, the wonderful thing, in the larger eternal scheme of things Shiz, is that God is far more fair than we could ever imagine ourselves to be. It is simply the timing of things is on His timetable and not ours as individuals.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Randy...

Loved your response. Thanks.

Randy · Senior Member

Mahonri...

Thanks for noticing. Glad to do it.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I thought your response was nice too... but then I thought "Give compliment, or make a wise-crack?" and well... wisecracking ray won out. He pretty much always wins... Sigh... rolleyes

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray...

Crack? sure

Wise? jury's still out!

nitasmile · Senior Member

I do see your point in that you endure a lot in a regular life, but so do these individuals. For me similar feelings come in being single, ie don't I deserve someone to help/encourage me in life conflicting w/feelings that I must be strong to be able to get through life w/o the help and love of someone.

When I first joined the Church, this doctrine was actually one of the first things of which I had a testimony. I used to volunteer and later worked w/those who were profoundly mentally retarded and physically disabled, ie those who are " heirs to the celestial kingdom" with that free ticket of which you speak. I recall the missionaries telling me those type of individuals had a free ticket.

Saying this, this is how I feel about this doctrine, I've really rambled but hope it will make a little sense. I feel nothing in life is really free. Having worked w/those individuals, I think there is a HUGE price they pay for that ticket. For someone who dies under 8, their price is not being able to go through the rest of mortality w/their family and loved ones or to have the chance to go to school, to develop talents, to get married/have their own family,e tc. Also, remember if they died young they might have been in a painful accident or had a debiltating and painful disease. While we hope children who die young do so w/o pain, their disease process could have been most uncomfortable. They also bear the pain (their spirit even if their child mind didn't grasp the idea) of not being able to be there to care for their parents when they are old or to help siblings during life. It is just not all a bed of roses.

As for those w/mental retardation who also have physical disabilitities, there can be much joy but also agony. Most people w/MR don't marry, my clients would not marry. The people for whom I worked had the most severe levels of MR. They couldn't talk, walk. Many endure multiple medical problems such as seizures. Soem have bad caregivers, I know I was a good one and I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging. But I know I worked hard for them, as did many others. But there were some who were lazy. Many of these patients could not make their own choices, most of them were even unable to chose which bite of food or drink they wanted or what they wanted to wear. They had to deal w/others making their most basic choices. Many of them had to deal w/families who rarely visited, either due to the parent's aging or misguided priority. Others have loving family but may be left out of vacations as the family is unable to help w/their physical care, for my people their "home" was an institution and most didn't get to go to thri homes to visit. Ever. Imagine that and how it would feel. Also their physical and cognitive limitations prevented them from assisting their families- ie if their family was sick, etc. Of course they could smile and could care, but you wonder how their spirit might feel at not being able to render loving assistance to loved ones. They had to spend life wearing diapers, having others decide when they get up or if they lie on their right side, left side or supine or prone. Others choosing what music or TV show. They had to deal with some nutrtitionist deciding what meals they would eat, as meals were done on a 3 week rotating cycle. Things were done by schedule, clinicians making their decisions for them. One had to deal w/me shaving off his goatee by accident! Many had to wear uncomfortable braces- I remember one guy who always smiled, then he had painful surgery to correct scoliosis- he cried with the slightest movement until the surgery was revised.

Another girl loved to lie prone, rest on her forarms and "rock" to music. Had she been "normal", I feel she would have been a ballet dancer or maybe jazz. Surely she would have been on tons of dance teams and loved to go to dances. Yet she was unable to sit at a 90 degree angle or to sit in a regular chair, her wheelchair was more like a stretcher for she couldn't "sit". But her severe scoliosis worsened and she was prevented from doing her "dancing", so as to delay the progression of the scoliosis (which would eventually crush her internal organs). She would suffer when we were not able to place her in her preferred position. Agony for her. Heavenly Father loved this girl and her last moments of life were spent smiling w/some Elvis Presley doll.

Some had severe allergies- one endures life w/eating only baby food- he's in his early 30s though I'm not sure if he is still alive. That man LOVED Vanilla ICECREAM (only allowed flavor due to allergy) and got it 3 times a day. He would get mad and grunt if we didn't feed him fast enough and if we didn't get him his icecream. Yes, he will get his free ticket-- and he will get a buffet of all the worlds best desserts to boot!

Yet despite these challenges, every single one would smile or laugh. They each had their thing they enjoyed about life. I really feel they are some of the noblest. They deserve that ticket- but I really don't think i would call it "free", for there is a lot they endure to receive it.

Finally, today I read an article about a baby who was abused by a foster mom. He was thrown in a basinette and suffered severe brain trauma. Now his mental age is about 3 months and he will require life long care. The article mentionned how his life could have been so different, had he not been abused. It is horrible that he was treated this way. The only point of justice is that after his life, a life that will now require 24/7/365 care, he will get that automatic entrance. But his price will be paid in all the suffereing that he endures in his life.

I know I really rambled, this is what makes sense to me. Don't know if it helps.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Great comments Nita. In regards to the physically retards, I wonder if in the ressurrection their perfected memories will be able to draw upon their imperfect bodies in a way that it will forever be a source of humility to them--such that it is sufficient to fill their needs to achieve and succeed at whatever challenges lie ahead to receive eternal life.

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Nita,

Wonderful insights. The Golden Ticket isn't alwasy so 'golden'.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Thanks Ray and Mahonri. I do see what Valahalla is getting at- I think there must be very few people in this world for whom life is totally easy. I think a challenge must be to find joy no matter what the situation in life.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Wouldn't it be something to get up to Heaven only to find out that EVERY PERSON who came to earth had some major trials? I mean stuff none of us would wish on each other? And Satan had us all believing so and so had a charmed life... Now that would be SOME awfully talented deception... biggrin

--Ray

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I appreciate the insights, Nita. I have viewed it as those people, even with having a straight shot to the CK, they still are here experiencing trials, privations, etc., whereas others will not experience those things. It also not only an issue of us being here and those throughout history that go through the hardships, not talking about spiritual trials, but the vagaries and challenges of everyday life. But I also think of what Lehi talked about in the BoM in 2 Nephi 11 and how it squares with the "innocents" and what we are told, as well as learn in the temple (which of course will not be discussed here):

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.