Yes, are you?

Like WHAT, praytell?

I mean, why is Utah rated #1 for bankruptcies? That's downright embarrassing.

Oh, calling me self-righteous is supposed to shut me down? Debt's not attractive, either.

oops

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 12:24, 2007-04-03

You obviously don't want to share what you're "living through" (gimme a break) because it must hint of some materialism that would reveal your priorities are out of whack.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 09:33, 2007-04-04

Coco, cool it. You are right that too many people use excuses to stay in debt. But there are legitimate reasons for having debt, and people may not be too willing to share them. Besides, even if all of Bok's reasons were bad (not saying they are, just constructing a hypothetical) it is still not your place to call her on it.

I don't really care what anyone's story is. I wasn't getting personal until you started it. The topic is worth discussing, though.

Maybe it's not.

I think we as a people (LDS) live way further out of our means than we should. I also think our views of what's a need or a want are sometimes seriously screwed up.

Didn't loan me money for my husband's vasectomy, for one!

Oh, see there you go. One minute everything's fine. The next, you're all freaked out. Are you eating too much sugar?

Isn't it in the Church handbook that men aren't supposed to have vasectomies? Someone told me that...

I heard you had to get it reversed to get your recommend back.

What's something you think people get sucked into thinking is a need, but it's really a want?

Maybe transportation? I think a lot of money gets sucked up here unnecessarily.

Ladies, please disengage until you both can talk to each other in a civil and respectful manner.

Here is the process if you have a grievance with one other... if you feel the other has slighted you publicly here at Bountiful, then you can call for a mediation to review and help the two of you come to a resolution you both concur with. If you aren't willing to do this, then apologize to and forgive each other privately and play nicely.

If you have issues coming from discussions outside of Bountiful, well, you're on your own for that part.

I think Arbilad already provided an official moderator advisement to calm down...

Think of Elder Holland's Saturday conference talk, and think of your comments in that light. If you feel that your comments are in line with his council, then I'm fine with you leaving your comments as is. If you feel uncomfortable about your comments in light of his council, then it's probably a good idea to edit them.

Back to making this a informative topic:

Jason's Tips for Dealing with Creditors During Financial Times

1. Contact your creditor. 99% of creditors do not want you bankrupt. They will work out a payment plan. You can often even negotiate if you are in dire straits (not the band). The key is communication. You can save your credit score which can also affect your employment situation. Be nice, avoid profanities, anger, nasty remarks, insults, etc. Often the person calling you is just doing their job but they can often make decisions or recommendations that can really make your life pleasant or a living heck. A former employee of mine that worked for many years at a collection agency emphasised this one over and over.

2. Keep in contact with your creditors. Don't ignore them or try to hide. That just makes them mad and less willing to work with you when you come to your senses. If you hide, don't return calls, etc they will just get more aggressive. This was another tip from my former employee that had worked at a collection agency.

3. If you work out a payment plan, stick with it. One of the worst things you can do is work a payment plan out with a creditor and only follow it for one month. That just makes us mad and less likely to work with you.

4. Pay the highest interest debts first with any extra funds. Interest is the cost of borrowing money. If you have $20 extra dollars a month to pay down debt pay it on the 18% credit card before the 4.9% car loan.

5. After paying off one debt, use the money you were paying on that loan or debt to begin paying off another loan or debt. Continue doing this as you pay off other debts. After a few are paid off and you can use that money to help pay the remaining debts, they will start to really go down a lot faster.

6. Limit Credit Cards. Credit cards seem to be the place where people really, really are messing up their credit and getting into trouble. How many do you really need? Most folks can get by on one or two. They can be nice in an emergency by more often an emergency means lunch at McDoodles or Burger Barron. If you can't pay the whole thing off when you get your bill then perhaps your limit is too high. You can request that your credit card company lower your limit. They may think you are crazy but it can help eliminate the temptation. If you really need one for emergencies, freeze it in a gallon of water and keep it in the fridge. Then if the shopping bug bites a little time chipping it out of a solid block of ice can usually change your mind. In a real emergency, you won't have a problem waiting for it to thaw.

7. Medical bills: These can be a real shocker. Sometimes you think your insurance will cover something and it won't. Many times the insurance company or the doctor's billing department just flat out make a mistake. When in doubt, ask. Ask them both. Ask the insurance company to appeal if you have to. If you do owe the amount then often the doctor's office will negotiate. On several occassions my wife has called about making payments to a doctor for a particular bill not covered by insurance. Nearly every time they said we could make payments or that they would give us a discount if we paid the bill that day. Sometimes they nearly cut the bill in half to get it paid immediately. They know that if they turn it over to a collection agency, they will lose about 50-40% to the agency. If you make payments, then they have to draw it out over months and there is still a good chance they will have to turn it over to collections so the more experienced ones are often ready to cut a deal.

8. Taxes: My old business law prof, a lawyer who used to work for the IRS told us that if we were ever audited and told we had to pay a huge amount, that we should appeal. As part of her hiring process at the IRS she was audited and a discrepency was found on one of her past returns. With the interest and penalties it turned into quite an amount. Her future boss told her to appeal the amount. They waved the interest and penalties after the appeal. She said that in 99% of cases she saw go to appeal at the IRS, the outcome of the appeal was much better than the original decision. If you owe, you will have to pay but there is flexibility in the penalties and interest.

9. Auto purchases. Be careful of special interest rates advertised by car companies. The only way a car dealer can offer less than prime interest rates is by doing what is called "Buying Down the Rate". In other words, they are using an extra discount on the car or inflating the price to offer you 2.9% for 60 months. Some car dealers will give you the option of either low rate interest or cash back (more discount). Have them show you the deal under both scenarios. Then look on the quote under each for the "total cost" over the life of the loan. Sometimes that lower rate will actually cost you more in the long run. If you can make more than the minimum payment each month, that low rate isn't much good anyway. Also, when shopping for cars, don't be so picky. I see so many people throwing dollars away and getting into more debt than they need because they want a whole list of features, a particular color, etc. I have found good deals because the dealer had a unit that the salesmanager had been driving for six months and it had a few miles on it. Used cars can also be a very good buy if they are checked over by a good mechanic. If you get one with at least some remaining powertrain warranty, then any really costly expenditures won't be out of your pocket. Also consider your driving. A single man living in the city will be less inconvenienced by a break down than a woman with three kids living in a rural area. If the car breaks down with the woman and three small children in the middle of nowhere on a 110 degree day there is going to be a problem. A beater may not be a good choice for this person. Often, vehicles are where the keeping up with the Jones problems happen with members of the church. The "all the sisters in the ward are driving new fully loaded Toyota minivans so I have to have one to" syndrome can cause a significant debt problem when a standard Dodge Caravan can be had at half the price and still do the job.

Toys are another area that get people into trouble. The quad or bass boat look great parked in the driveway or garage but the monthly payment can be a killer. Most of these toys can be rented for about the same price as a monthly payment. If you are only using them a few weekends a year then that asset is sitting useless in your garage doing nothing but losing value. Boats, quads, and other similar toys do not gain in value. They also eat up dollars for maintenance, fuel, storage, etc. Then there is the cost of insurance on those items. For the twice a year family vacation, those rental rates look like quite a good deal. But this can be hard when every other guy in the ward has them or the sisters are comparing amenities in travel trailers at homewrecking.

It takes discipline and priorities. Sometimes people make mistakes. Most of the time there is a way back without resorting to bankruptcy. A last resort can be non profit credit counselling services that will allow you to consolidate all your debts under one low interest loan with manageable payments but there are some requirements that have to be followed and it's not something you can turn to over and over.

I hope this information has been helpful. Another good piece of advice is to check your credit report occassionally for accuracy. The government requires that at least annually you can check it at no cost. For more info go to the Federal Trade Commission's web site or http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/freereports.htm

I hope this information has been helpful. I am not a financial adviser but have a lot of experience as a creditor and have heard every story and seen things that would amaze you. I actually had a guy threaten to beat me up because I was trying to get him to make payments on his bill. If you have any questions or stories, please share.

Ok. I'm calm again. Can I come out of the corner now?

Roper, what an interesting perspective on debt and consecration. I must think on this.

To Cocobeem's question back at the beginning of this thread: "So, what's the deal with us LDSs being told over and over that we need to get out of debt and we still don't do it?" Same as with other commandments that were disobeyed.

Joseph Smith was accepted as a true prophet by nearly all LDSs in his time. Yet his revealing of the principle of plural marriage caused many to apostatize. In fact he acknowledged his own difficulty with that commandment and his delay in implementing it. Then the reverse happened when President Woodruff declared the discontinuance of plural marriage. Some members could not accept that, even in our time, as the media has been reminding us lately.

When President Grant spoke out againt "old age assistance", some members fiercely opposed him, and suggested that he stick to religious issues.
 

Many members were highly motivated by President McKay's "Every member a missionary" proclamation. But how many heeded his statement :"Next to being one in worshipping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States." Even today, many members cringe at mention of the Constitution and constitutional principles, and the subject has proven to be very divisive among Church members.
 

President Kimball's plea for mothers to stay in the home and raise their children was ignored by many, who seemed to think he did not understand the pressing needs for money in raising a family.
 

How many members continued to use food stamps after being told to rely on Church assistance instead? Many LDSs did use them, according to an acquaintance of mine who worked at the food stamp office in Provo.

How many members joined in the flocking to supermarkets and other stores when they began opening on Sundays, some probably with turned up collars?

How many members heeded what Ezra Taft Benson said to us about the importance to study and support U.S. Constitution, or heeded his warning about the secret combination seeking to "overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries."?

How many members and families are doing their best on family preparedness?
 

And good grief, let's not forget family history? How many members are actively engaged in genealogical research and related activities as commanded? I understand its about 30% - 35% of active members.

The perspective of a creditor is an interesting one. To a degree, I have that perspective. I did some work for someone who then refused to pay me. He has a business, is still in business these many years later, and could have payed me back. I even got a judgment against him, but he hid his assets in creative ways. I am not the only one he cheated.
I used to be bitter about it. I used to wonder about the justice of it. Now I've gotten over it. There will be justice eventually, even if it is before a righteous Heavenly Father.
BTW, I thought bankruptcy law had changed and now didn't offer a lot debtors a whole lot.

This discussion reminds me of a quandary I created when as a branch president in Denmark a few yeaars ago I suggested to the stake presidency that I not accept tithing on income derived from government welfare (unemployment, disability, etc,) payments for the following reasons.

1.) In both cases the members were cheating the welfare system, including exaggerating claims, declining job opportunities, and earning undeclared income on the side (moonlighting).

2.) The measured amount of money was given each month to them specifically for the purpose of providing certain things for their families, and I contended that they did not have the right to deprive their children of the benefits made available to them, ultimately by their neighbors who paid taxes.  My perspective was that their neighbors, or fellow citizens were paying their tithing, not they themselves.

I was asked to leave it alone, that it was a problem that extended beyond just our branch.  I expected that, but wanted to bring the situation in our branch to the attention of the stake presidency for another reason as well.      

Mahonri wrote:

---

some folks just don't care.

various folk owe me about $40,000 at present. I'll probably see less than 1% of that. I have my gals tell them... if all you can pay is $5 a month... at least it's something. Most just ignore. Unfortunately, many who owe me are members of the Church and they don't think I'll turn them over to a collection agency or sue them... and I won't. In the majority of those instances, I did the work at a substantial discount in the first place.... and so prices must go up because of the deadbeats. Then there are those who I just do work for free. Do you think they even offer a written thank you note? Most do not. I see a "retired" nun that I regularly give a 20% discount and without fail, I get a thank you note from her.

And so, with all my brood, I'll work until I plop over dead or until I can't do it anymore or until I'm forced into retirement or until the end of the world... which ever comes first.

---

That's sad.  I've had to turn people over to collections and take them to court.  It was always a last straw situation when they refused to work with me or make any payments.  One guy told me that I should just let him have the item he still owed me for because he thought I charged too much.  If I was charging too much then why did he buy it from me.  I haven't lost a case yet and fortunately I usually don't have to go that far.  The guy that threatened to beat me up has liens against his property but he just reopens his business under different family members so he goes on with life.  I had one guy that I called over and over and sent multiple letters to.  He wouldn't contact me.  Finally I sent him a letter telling him I was going to turn him over to collections.  Still no response.  At this point I had no choice so I turned him over to collections.  He almost immediately showed up in my office and his wife was screaming at me demanding that I pull it out of the collection agency.  I told her I would not because all my letters and calls had been ignored.  She yelled that I charged too much and started saying that another dealer charged much less.  This other dealer had just the week before declared chapter 7.  I pointed out to her that my prices were fair and if I charged what the other guy had charged I would be out of business also.  That's when she said something I will never forget.  She said, "Well at least they'll get to heaven faster than you!"  She threw the check down on my desk and left.  There are some really warped people out there.  The vast majority of customers I've had over the years were good people.  The ones that seemed to get into trouble had multiple marriages, drug or alcohol problems, gambling problems, and/or a lot of toys.

Last summer I worked in a Pest Control office ran by a bishop of one of the wards. Often times the people who didn't pay had the huge discounts, and would always be excused from the Collections list, even though they had the same amount of warning and the same absence of communication. We were totally willing to work out a plan to easily get the people out of debt, but they had to be willing to just let us know. Thus, we lost quite a bit of money simply because there was absolutely no communication.

Because we are getting married with each of us having 2 years of school left, we will probably have to get student loans. Now, I know a ton of people who will buy cars and live in really nice places on student loans, but my fiance and I both have the wish to stay out of debt as much as possible. Thus we are working on getting good jobs/internships for both summers, so that even if we have to get out a loan, after a few months in the real job (we're both engineers) we'll be able to pay it off and be debt free. I'd rather live in a hole-in-the-wall and live a little meagerly than be in heavy debt. I enjoy the simple life.

I think that the reason debt is such a problem is that people don't pay attention to when they are going to be able to pay off the debt, or they go into debt unnecissarily.  As long as there is a plan that is actively being pursued to get out of debt, it's not as big of a deal.  No one wants to be in debt and we are commanded to try to stay out of debt, but sometimes a little debt is necessary.  We just have to be smart about what we go into debt for, and how far we go into debt.  The trick is to keep it manageable, so that you won't have to encounter any financial problems, or be sent to collections.

or am I wrong in thinking this?

-- Edited by glumirk at 14:26, 2007-04-04

glumirk wrote:

---

Because we are getting married with each of us having 2 years of school left, we will probably have to get student loans. ...  Thus we are working on getting good jobs/internships for both summers, so that even if we have to get out a loan, after a few months in the real job (we're both engineers) we'll be able to pay it off and be debt free. I'd rather live in a hole-in-the-wall and live a little meagerly than be in heavy debt. I enjoy the simple life.

---

Be careful about taking out more than you actually need.  You both may qualify for Pell Grants now or after you are married so long as you do not let our parents claim you as dependants... should be pretty easy to do once you're married.

Anyway, student loans are typically long term debt, and the interest rates vary, so your payment can go up.  Mrs. Cat and I took out our first student loan debt while I was still in undergraduate school w/ no children.  We finally paid the last of it off about 5 years and 2 children later while I was in graduate school.  I finished graduate school 10 years ago come this June.  3 more kids later, we will have the last of those loans paid off by December of this year.  For 10 years, it has been like having close to another car payment every month.  We thought, ah no problem paying it off, and probably early too cuz I gots an MBA and I can expect to be earning big bucks...  Reality, I didn't find work for a year after graduation, and then even now, I'm just now only earning the average starting salary of what was reported for my graduating class (in other words, the "promises" made by the school and their advertising crapola were unrealistic).

The funny thing about any sort of debt, be it credit card or long term debt, you never know what tomorrow has in store.  You may have great plans for paying it off early or thinking it will be easy to repay it.  The reality is that you may not have the high paying job or employment you envision.  Your cost of living may be enormous.  Your family may end up having lots of health problems that add a lot of expense and fiscal pressure.

I remember a little maxim or quote we were told in a AP lesson once... Interest:  thems as understands it earns it...  thems as dont pays it...

Listen to wisdom here (from folks who have been living in debt for nearly all the 18 1/2 years they've been married and typically just hoping they make it month to month without expenses and costs outside their control increasing)... be conservative in your assuming and use of debt.  Learn to budget and be conservative in that as well.  Spend less than you budget, and certainly less than you earn.  Debt and consumerism really is a thing the adversary can use to keep you bound.  Today, it felt nice to pay off the balances on a couple high interest credit cards and make a nice dent in that sort of debt we're carrying (but alas, there went the bulk of the tax refund too).

YMMV / FWIW /

THanks for that tip Ray. I'll just sit tight on the student loans, and let all you tax payers take care of them for me!

-- Edited by bokbadok at 20:01, 2007-04-04