Forgiveness: Why do I hold back?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Forgiveness: Why do I hold back?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I thought the discussion of forgetting (I think it was Uchtdorf) was beautiful, about how it serves us NOT to forget our sins, but that God will...

I learned many things from all these good talks.

glumirk · Senior Member

When I was 14, I had a wonderful relationship with my mom. I could never imagine how anyone could have a "bad" relationship with their parents. However, one day she decided to share something I told her about some of the girls in YW, using names, in Relief Society. More than one thing happened because of what she said, thinking it was just a funny story, but one thing was that not only was I the goody-two-shoes girl who's dad was in the Stake Presidency and whose mom was in the Primary Presidency and then the Stake Primary Presidency, but the young women could never tell me anything because I was just going to tell it to my mom and it wasn't safe there.

Because I was so afraid and angry, my mom and I had a terrible relationship when I was a teen. I didn't want to open up to her about anything. I hardly ever let her into my personal life. I was depressed. I rebelled the only way I knew how: I didn't do the dishes. I could have done other things, but I wasn't ever a bad kid, and that was what I could do without feeling too guilty. I wanted to make her as miserable as she had made me. I no longer had good friends in the ward, and the only thing that kept me going was a testimony-building experience I had the night that I found out what she had done. Otherwise, who knows what would have become of me.

The years following were full of depression, anger, hatred, yelling, and about the moodiest teenager you could imagine. Because I never talked to my mother, she couldn't understand anything I was going through, but I wasn't about to tell her. It was horrible and I thought more than once of taking my own life. But my small testimony kept me from doing it, for which I am eternally grateful.

My senior year of high school (I was 17) I decided that I was tired of being miserable all the time, and discovered that I could find some good in every day, and found small happiness from things like the sunrise, good music, friends that would even just say hi to me, friends who would try to support me even though I tried so hard to push everyone away. I was torturing myself, and it needed to stop.

I moved to college ready for a fresh start on life. No one knew me, no one knew my family, no one knew my past, I got to build my life from scratch. I found a lot more happiness, a lot more friends, and had basically an "instant family" in my ward. It was wonderful! It's still wonderful! There are so many people I can go to about anything. However, I still held that anger and hatred and unforgiving attitude toward my mother, and a very good, very blunt, friend told me one day when I was upset by something that had happened that I needed to stop talking so negatively about my mother, and to take the Thumper advice of "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". It really hit me hard, and I did a lot of thinking about it. I was trying to evaluate the person I had become. Totally different than who I had been in high school, but I wanted to figure out why. The main difference: I was happy. I didn't go to bed every night crying about this or that that my mom did. I didn't go to bed feeling guilty and angry and justified for not doing the dishes. I had spent those years trying to figure out why my mom was how she was...and I realized more and more that she was trying just as hard as I was to be a good person...and raise her children well. Her mom was divorced when she had 4 kids (one died as a young child), and remarried and had a 5th. Both of my mom's sisters are not active in the church. One has been living with her fiance for years, and the other has two daughters out of wedlock, who don't care much about church at all. My mom was never very bright when it came to school, but has an amazing imagination and is very crafty. However, when I was 14 is also when I passed Geometry with flying colors...the class she studied hard, was tutored, and still barely got a C, probably because the teacher pitied her and knew how much work she put in. I don't think any of these reasons are even the reasons I was mad. I do know that she has always been proud of the good things that I have done, and has tried to be there for me.

This summer the women of the family went on a trip to Hawaii. Seeing my Grandma, my great aunt, my mom's sister, and my mom all together, made me really grateful for my mom and all of the wonderful choices she made. That's really when the bulk of the forgiveness started. It's still going, but just looking at the situation with a better perspective. I felt for years that my mom hated me and that's why she'd yell. And honestly, I can't remember most of the reasons I was so angry, I just remember crying a lot. I've archived most of those memories and don't care to remember them anymore, but they were real, and they were deep. So much that I had images of eloping in the Las Vegas Temple and not telling my mom, simply because I couldn't tell her anything. (funny thing is that my fiance is from that area, and I still had trouble telling her, but just kind of waved around my ringed hand until she was like "ohhhh!") The more I think of it, all of those years I felt that my mom really hated me, were just because I didn't understand her, and didn't care to try. I think the forgiveness is done, because I can laugh about those years and don't cry anymore, but it's still taking some adjustment, and I'm still learning. What I do know is that I can call her and just talk to her...which I never imagined being able to do. And even though she doesn't say she loves me, and even though her hugs are the most awkward things in the world, she shows it in a different way, and I just have to look for it. I also have to remember that no one is perfect, but she's still trying to be a good mom and to be there for me no matter how much I have pushed her away in my life. (I did a pretty good job of it too...you know the temper of red-heads...)

A lot of times when you feel hurt by someone, it wasn't intended. You may just not completely understand why they did such a thing. For me, it wasn't just about the first incident, but I would find more and more reasons to be angry and to hate. It just seemed easier than the possibility of being hurt again. However, I missed many good years, where I could have been happy, but chose to be miserable simply because I couldn't forgive and I couldn't look beyond the many ways in which my mother hurt me. Now I just laugh when my mom does silly things...and it's not hatred or hurt anymore. I'd even venture to say that I love her, which is huge for me. And I like to spend time with her.

A different case is when someone maliciously hurts you. Sometimes what you think is malicious really isn't, but sometimes it is. The answer is still the same though. One crucial part of my forgiveness process that I can't believe I forgot to mention is that my years of crying were also years of praying. For the longest time my prayers weren't in the right place. I'd pray trying to justify my actions, asking that my mom would get the point. I'd pray a lot about my self-worth, thanking my Heavenly Father for loving me when not even my own mother could bear to love me. And eventually I grew to the point where I was praying for a more positive outlook, that I could see the good in life and get out of my dark depression. I prayed that my anger could leave and that my soul could finally heal through forgiving my mom.

I don't care to remember many of the feelings that I felt back then. I don't care to remember many of the prayers I prayed. I don't care to remember the hours of crying, and waking up dehydrated. I don't care to remember the times I wanted to kill myself, or run away, or hurt someone. I don't care to remember it. What it was was the poison of not allowing myself to forgive.

What I do want to remember is the immediate happiness that entered my life when the long process of forgiving started. Because I had allowed it to plague me for so long, it took me awhile to forgive. But in my life that I felt had grown stagnant, even out at college where I had learned and grown so much, since I have forgiven, or at least mostly forgiven (I still have to patch up certain parts of our relationship so that I can feel free to openly talk to her), I have grown so much in my goal of becoming myself. For years I let that hatred plague my life, and I wouldn't do something, or even like something, just because my mom liked it.

I guess really, I had always had a testimony of the Lord's infinite love for me. But as I was trying to become more like Him, I realized that he has infinite love for my mother as well, and it wouldn't hurt me to try to love her too. And as I prayed for the help and the strength, it came. Forgiving anyone can be hard, but trying to understand them as an imperfect person, and allowing the Lord's love to flow through me is what helps me to forgive.

In writing this I can still think of people I haven't forgiven and may have even lost my chance to do so in some cases. My theory on life is "All you need is love" and I can't manage to do it. However, I know that as we show love toward others, especially to those by whom we feel hurt, that we can be healed. Each act of kindness is a drop of love and can aid the healing heart. And not just your own.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

That's quite a story, glumirk. And congrats on your engagement! He better be a fantastic guy!

roper- I think you and I probably have a bit in common in this arena, if the person you're referring to is who I think it is.

Part of the problem for me is the "perpetuity" of it all. It's been going on and on... and it will go on and on for several more years. There's no change on the part of the person we must forgive, so we must keep a balance between our protecting ourselves and our children insofar as we can, and not letting it eat us alive. It can be a fine line to walk. It can be difficult to "check" our words and actions and expressions in front of the kids involved to make sure we are not adding to their burden. It can cause ramifications in the new marriage.

I just try to go back to the thought that it's all about me. HA! Let me explain... The PERSON does not care at all if I forgive them or not. In fact, they purposefully do things to anger, frustrate, intimidate and generally make my life hell. I've sometimes compared my PERSON to an apostate. "Why can't you just leave me ALONE?" I also like the saying, "Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die." And I guess, most of all, I just look at it like it's something I'm wading through. It will end, eventually and I'm so much more happy to go through hell in this life, if I can avoid it in the next. It's the thorn in my side right now. Other people have thorns, too, and I sure wouldn't want them to have to put up with this PERSON, so I'll go ahead and do it.

One other thought- I see how the bitterness and anger has eaten away at my mom. Sure, I am her only child, she had me at 43 as a result of a PH blessing, etc. and she pissed off at the circumstances. I'm her baby, etc. But, wow. It's not been good how she can't let go. It rubs off on me. It rubs off on the kids. It just makes her look like the bitter hateful person that she really isn't. Satan will indeed work all angles.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper, I would recommend reading "The Anatomy of Peace" by the Arbinger Institute. It has really helped me look at my relationships with others in a new and healthier way than I ever have before. The book isn't specifically about forgiveness, but learning to think in a new way has helped me move further toward the peace of forgiving.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I guess I'm just a simple minded person, or maybe I'm lucky not to have had the same sort of things where I've been in need of forgiving others... Sure, sometimes it takes time to get past the hurt, anger, or pain and to stop dwelling on the memory, but I take quite literally the scriptures where The Lord not only commands us to forgive, but indicates that my own forgiveness from Him is contingent on my forgiving others.

D&C 64:7-11

For years, I kind of misunderstood the part there where The Lord says He'll forgive whom He forgives, as if it meant He gets to pick and choose who He forgives. Then, as I have grown a little in spiritual maturity, I began to understand a bit better what He is saying elsewhere, namely D&C 19:13-20.

It is His will and desire to forgive all, but as the mediator between Mercy and Justice, He must limit that full forgiveness to those who repent. We, though are not under that constraint, and therefore are not justified in withholding forgiveness to any other person for any reason. Not even in forgiving ourself...

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I don't think I can take credit for the forgiveness that I feel towards those who have wronged me in ways. I have had times when I felt so bitter. There have been opportunites to see those who harmed me do good. I believe that the one did much harm due to chemical imbalance and a hot temper rather than being evil. I hope that they other did the evil due to the circumstances in his life that were bad and I hope he is not the same person that betrayed me. From his life, it seems that he is a productive and decent person. And yet, I have never confronted him about the abuse.

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

I have stuff to say about forgiveness. Mainly, that most of the time forgiveness means forgetting, but sometimes, no it doesn't.

From a thread long, long ago on a message board far, far away:

I am occasionally berated by relatives: "How can you claim you've forgiven so-and-so, when you don't let them babysit your kids? Don't you believe families can be together forever? You need to get over the past, so we can be a strong family again."

It seems to me like what forgiveness is and what it is not can sometimes be confusing. Forgiveness is not:

* Something that hinges on someone else's repentance.
* Turning a blind eye towards evil.
* Refusal to protect yourself or those in your care from harm or abuse.
* Sheltering others from the consequences of their actions.

I hear quite often things like "Oh, that's just the way he is. I've forgiven him." I've witnessed this attitude from people who seem content to tolerate any number of sins from alcoholism to child abuse.

Also, I've met my share of parents who attempt to shelter their children from consequenses to serious misdeeds with the attitude "Well, he 'repented', and I've forgiven him." Therefore, he doesn't need to go to jail for armed robbery, or there's no need to enroll him in drug rehab, or it's fine to continue to let her boyfriend live with them. That's not forgiveness, that's more like weakness, gullibility, cowardice, misplaced guilt, or some such thing.

Forgiveness is truly a beautiful thing. I've personally had the opportunity and challenge to forgive manipulative and self-absorbed parents, a rapist, pedophiles, and incestuous siblings. I can wholeheartedly support the principle of forgiveness as instituted by God for the betterment of His children. In forgiving these people, I found roadblocks to my own spiritual progress removed. I have been able to bless the lives of my wife and children by forgiving these people, and unloading all the baggage I would otherwise be carrying. My heart and soul feels clean - free of grudges, desires for vengence, misplaced guilt, etc.

But at the same time, I have a duty to my own children to shelter them from known sources of serious harm, and half of these people are still out there being up to no good.

How do you fully forgive someone when you know they will offend again and again?It's an understandable question. One thing that helped me was the intellectual understanding that the offender is loved by God, even though they did what they did. I worked at understanding how God could do that. I worked at understanding the lives of those who offended me, and how they might have come to such a state. I cultivated a feeling of tenderness towards their griefs and stresses. (In no way did that justify their offenses, it just helped me understand them better.)

Another thing that helped me was the understanding that I don't know what is in someone's heart. I can't write their destinies and say I know they will offend again. I can only predict future behavior based on past behavior and current expressed attitudes.

It can indeed be difficult to forgive - especially in situations where the offender wasn't caught, hasn't faced any negative consequences, seems to be enjoying the fruits of their offense, or continues to offend others. Learning to accept these people as your neighbors, and loving them with your best approximation of how God loves them can seem almost impossible.

But forgiveness really has nothing to do with the other person at all. It's an internal process that cleanses you of feelings that take you further away from the pure love of Christ.

But would you keep your distance though as you know that they would do the same thing again and again because that way you don't get hurt again or be a sucker to their sins?If someone seems to like hitting me with bricks, and just yesterday he did it, of course I'm going to stay away from him. After all, he might hit me with a brick! Nothing good ever came from getting hit with a brick just because someone likes it.

I'm not interested in standing around him so he can work on hitting a little less each day. It doesn't matter if he says he's sorry after he hits me with a brick. The fact that he got hit with bricks as a kid doesn't change my mind. It doesn't matter that apart from this brick hitting thing, he's a good buddy. I don't want to get hit with a brick, and there's no good reason why I should.

So I avoid this person.

Now, if I hear that the person has joined "brick hitters anonymous", and he's gone a year without hitting anyone with a brick, and he and I can have lunch at a crowded McDonalds without any bricks appearing - then I might re-evaluate my position. But not until then.

I've found this line of reasoning applies to friends, boy/girlfriends, spouses, parents, in-laws, aquaintences, people at work, people at church, and just about any other human being for that matter.

So how do you know that you've really forgiven them?I tried to explain it a little before - Learning to accept these people as your neighbors, and loving them with your best approximation of how God loves them. I said my heart and soul feels clean - free of grudges, desires for vengence, misplaced guilt, etc.

But the more I think about it, I know I have forgiven these people because I am truly able to love them like I know God loves me.

Kind of the catharctic moment in my life was when I got on my knees and was finally able to pray for the person that raped someone I dearly loved. I tried, but couldn't do it for a number of months. I kept wanting to pray that the law would find him. That he would understand the pain he had caused. That the rest of us could be protected from him. Those were all fine things to pray for, but I hadn't forgiven him, and I wanted God to do something to him to give justice.

I knew I had forgiven him when I was able to pray that he could find happiness and rest in God. When I examined my heart, and found tenderness for him there, and sorrow that he was taking himself away from God - that's when I knew I had forgiven.

If I should ever see him again, I would protect my family from him. But I've forgiven him.

HSR

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think I must have been there at that board long, long ago HSR.

Thanks for the memories and the truths you've shared.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Thank you all for the insights and the strengths you've shared. Our perceptive Ms. Coco grasped what I left unsaid in the OP.

I believe it was Elder Oaks, in speaking about divorce, who cited the study that showed people have an easier time dealing with the death of a spouse than with a divorce.

That's my situation. As Coco mentioned, it's the required perpituity of the relationship with my former spouse. I felt utterly betrayed in the events leading up to the divorce. And in the years since, just when I think I think I've forgiven, some little betrayal of trust takes place and then I feel the whole weight of it again and it seems like I have to start over.

After all these years, I can predict with great accuracy which phrases and even words will be turned back against me, or even worse, against my beloved bride. And so I have learned to be very guarded and careful in my communication.

I apprreciate HSR's perspective. Here is another one that is helping me:

Divorce is the work of Satan: The temptation of online romance and chat rooms during the dark months of lonliness while a husband is deployed overseas, the deceptive interpretations presented over and over until the history of a marriage is rewritten in the worst possible perspective, the lies through the voices of friends that she'll be so much happier after divorce, the lies voiced through (do I dare say it?) priesthood leadership that a divorce would have minimal impact on our children. All came from Satan.

She despaired for a season. Should I judge? I have known despair. I have been rescued. Should I not hope for the same for her?

In the final analysis, forgiveness is a gift. Freely given. Unearned. I haven't even come close to giving that gift seventy times seven.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper,

You get it.

You are a good man.

And you are right... nobody deserves a divorce.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Okay, we've got two similar threads going on here, it looks like. I just posted over on the divorce thread. I guess I'll add some here, too.

Yes, roper, to me it was obvious, probably because I recognized that road the moment I saw it. Online chat rooms- yikes, we're living a parallel experience here, my friend. Interesting advice one can get from their priesthood leaders, too. We came in to the bishop and started with, "We're having some problems." That's all that was said. Could've been money, gambling, WoW, who knows? First thing out of the bishop's mouth, "Well, the Brethren encourage couples to stay together until the kids are grown."

My jaw dropped. First I thought it was presumptuous of him to assume. Second, I thought that was the worst advice I'd ever heard. The advice only got worse from there. But, in His infinite wisdom, God allows things to work for good for them that love Him.

Question- Do you have guilt? Could you be confusing forgiveness of the ex with forgiveness of yourself?

Another question- How would you feel if she repented and returned to full, noble activity in the Church? Would you feel good... or would this make you have doubts that the divorce was the right thing to do?

Please don't be offended at these pointed questions. And by all means do not answer if you're not inclined. Just a couple things I've pondered with my own situation...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Hugs to all who've struggled with forgiveness. I think it is one of the deepest lessons we can learn, because it comes at such a great price. Someday these spiritual insights you have, which still sting and gall you will be your greatest possessions, worth more than gold.

--Ray

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

Roper wrote:
I believe it was Elder Oaks, in speaking about divorce, who cited the study that showed people have an easier time dealing with the death of a spouse than with a divorce.

I've seen this happen. We had some new neighbors move in, and within a month, the hubby died in a car wreck. As my wife got to know the lady better and better, we heard more and more of the story about the sorry state of their marriage. They were heading for divorce. He had filed the paperwork. At the time of the accident, they were just a week away from making it final. They were gearing up to make the transition as easy as possible on their 18 month old boy.

As she related the story and got to the car wreck, she sort of paused sheepishly. It was easy enough to see what she was not saying - "And then he died and all of the stuff about being civil, keeping up appearances, trying to avoid bitterness and one-upsmanship, having to work through the heartrending emotions, the doubts, the anger - all the problems just solved themselves."

There's little doubt in my mind that divorces can often be harder than deaths.

HSR

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

During my divorce I admit I was thinking how much easier it would have been, had his plane just gone down. But the Lord, in His mercy saw fit to release me from my covenant and I was blessed to be sealed for eternity to MrCoco, who hadn't been married before. Had he died, I'da been "stuck" so to speak. Although all snags will be worked out in the next life.

Our nursery leader just moved into the ward recently, following her husband's suicide. She was likewise relieved, as their marriage was very troublesome.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

Question- Do you have guilt? Could you be confusing forgiveness of the ex with forgiveness of yourself?

Another question- How would you feel if she repented and returned to full, noble activity in the Church? Would you feel good... or would this make you have doubts that the divorce was the right thing to do?

Please don't be offended at these pointed questions. And by all means do not answer if you're not inclined. Just a couple things I've pondered with my own situation...

At first I had a lot of guilt. I thought everything was my fault. If only I'd done X instead of Y, then maybe she wouldn't leave. An insightful and talented counselor, along with an inspired and loving Bishop, helped me to resolve all of that before I remarried.

I will rejoice when my former spouse returns to full and noble activity in the church. In fact, she's well on her way now. That will be the best thing she can do for our children. As far as doubts go: Our divorce was absolutely the wrong thing to do. However, she wanted out, and in the end, there was nothing I could legally do to stop it.

After the divorce, had she disappeared and we never again communicated, forgiveness would be so much easier. Our continuing devotion to our children means continuing communication. And that means continuing opportunites for petty little power games and deceptions.

I'm tired. I just want it to be done.

palmon · Senior Member

" or would this make you have doubts that the divorce was the right thing to do?"

the time to question is before and once done, it's done and haunting yourself with doubts is just cruel. The "i should've. could've and would've"s solve no problem, balm no wound. They fester the soul and prevent progression.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Yep. Whether it is divorce or yelling at the kids, the "should've could've would've" serves no other purpose than to learn and not make the same mistake in the future. It should not be given more attention by one self than that, otherwise it can turn into a downward spiral of self recrimination, inability to forgive one self, and the increased chance that one will make the same mistake again because one doesn't gain the vision or have the hope that they will really be free of the mistake. Forgiveness of one's self is so important, and yet I don't think many people really understand the need for and reality of it. Think about it... if The Lord can forgive you, shouldn't you be humble enough to do it for yourself as well? If one doesn't forgive oneself, isn't that kind of like slapping The Lord in the face for His forgiving you?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"Our divorce was absolutely the wrong thing to do. However, she wanted out, and in the end, there was nothing I could legally do to stop it."

Wow. See, this is a facet I haven't had to deal with. Is this your new spouse's first marriage?

And the part about feeling tired. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I was so tired of it while we were "negotiating" the terms of the divorce... oh, man. For me, it turned against me. It became a tool of Satan. I compromised out of sheer weariness. Much of that came back to bite me. Yet another lesson.

It comes into focus even more sharply how we must be an example, a rock, for our children, doesn't it? "Life sucks, and this is how we handle it."

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I think that the important factor is that you want to forgive, Roper. I understand what you mean by feeling that you have forgiven and then having the actions of another bring everything to the forefront. We cannot always control negative thoughts. In fact, trying to stop thoughts can have the opposite effect. What we can try to do is think of something else when a negative thought comes in our mind. For instance, if you think of something negative that your ex-wife has done, try to replace that with a thought of something positive you are going to do with your family soon or of thoughts of your recent Spring break with your family.

When I feel negative and paranoid, I will sometimes think of those who inspire me. I have met a few individuals online who have been through so much in this life and yet put so much energy into serving God. I think of one person who was so weak due to chronic fatigue syndrome that he willed himself to be able to go to Sacrament meeting on Sunday because he loves the Lord so much.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I agree with Zealia about bad thoughts. It occurs to me that humming your favorite hymn might work even for angry thoughts or thoughts that bring up bad memories that you're trying to forget. I really enjoyed that story a GA shared about the man who was in such a habit of humming a hymn when unchaste thoughts came to his mind that he had completely forgotten why he was singing. Perhaps that's a key to more than just lustful thoughts?

Replace the negative with something positive, even something banal like a hymn is at least a good place to start... If you think about it, when you're in church feeling the Spirit or listening to conference or reading the scriptures, you don't feel those feelings, instead we feel the Love Christ has for us... we just need ways to get back to those safe places where we can be reminded of his love, and letting go is that much easier...

I once knew a woman who, whenever someone shared a negative story about anyone (gossip) she shared a positive one about the same person. Perhaps that was her way of not holding onto the negative.
--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 21:09, 2007-04-09