An Apostle on Immigration

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

An Apostle on Immigration

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Hmmm.... Sort of like where ray was going the other day... I wonder if there's some "bigger plan" involved. Interesting. I really like Elder Eyring. Making me look forward to Gen. Conf. even more.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Interesting. OTOH, I will continue to vote and be against immigration, legal or illegal. One interpretation might be to accept people and their cultures and not look down on them. If it is to be interpreted as a pronouncement of church doctrine to let them come in and do as they will, well, I deal with it then.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I just reread 2 Nephi in which the Lord explains his covenant to Nephi, and makes some rather telling comments about what will happen if his descendants forget the Lord.

I wonder, do you believe that covenant applies to all who inhabit the "Promised Land"--to the gentiles too?

Lehi explains: in 2 Nephi 1: 6-7 -

6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

And then Lehi contines with The fate of the Nephites is explained by Lehi in verses 9-12, which I think applies to all who live in the Land of Promise:

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.

11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

12 Yea, as one generation passeth to another there shall be bloodsheds, and great visitations among them; wherefore, my sons, I would that ye would remember; yea, I would that ye would hearken unto my words.

Later Jacob explains (and quotes Isaiah) that the gentiles (who fight against Zion (he clarifies in chapter 6 of 2 Nephi)) shall treat the House of Israel, as ones who "lick up the dust of their feet". (It's interesting that this chapter of Isaiah (49) is more or less quoted in its fullness twice in the Book of Mormon...

1 Nephi 19:

22 Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people; and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers; they shall bow down to thee with their face towards the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord; for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

The Mexican people mingled their seed with the indigenous people (Lamanites?) a lot more completely than did the American "Gentiles"... Isn't it interesting then that now that a "standard" (of living?) has been set here in this country, that everyone wants a piece of it? Could it be that this standard is both spiritual and temporal?

Anyhow it's stuff I wonder about... I don't know what it all means... I just get this feeling that it's better to do all I can to prepare for the inevitable, than to wish away things that God may very well have a hand in...

I just think there's gotta be a way to make the best of a situation which has will inevitably change anyway... but it's late and I need sleep...

--Ray

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Our branch president, who was also at the devotional, and with whom I have been discussing Elder Eyring's statements, just last evening sent me the same scriptures as Ray presented here. On another thread somewhere here I posted a "Scriptural History of the United States". I neglected or overlooked these scriptures, which I think are significant, and I plan to include them into it on my hard drive. The statement of the Lord thru Lehi that "Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord." indicates to me that the Lord may be inspiring the participants in this mass immigration that we are experiencing now. My own thought, and this is just opinion, has been that Satan is also very much involved in this. Put on your tin foil hats if you like. This will not set well with those who believe President Bush is a righteous man seeking and carrying out the will of God. Instead, it looks to me like the massive immigration and the push to legalize the illegals and keep the border open are promoted by very evil powers running our government. And at this point I believe they are inspired by Satan, and that the Lord is letting them have their way. And like Valhalla, I expect I will continue to oppose illegal immigration and amnesty because I'm not one to let anybody just run all over me. I have supported the Minute Men while living in Arizona, and have reported illegals living in our neighborhood there. I think the 12th Article of Faith is still in effect. I don't think Elder Eyring was condoning illegal immigration, but rather just telling it like it is.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

So... go meet your illegal immigrated neighbor and share the gospel.

Will do.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

It's hard to reconcile this scripture:

"Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord."

with the knowledge that a lot of these illegals are criminal types. But then I think, well, what if God has a hand in that, too? I mean, "none come into this land" seems pretty straight forward to me, but then there are times we read "too much" into something, or interpret it to fit our positions... I guess it could be sort of a punishment, if you look at it that way. But nothing has to be a punishment to the righteous, because all things work together for good to them that love the Lord... Then again, where the Lord has a plan, you can count on Satan exercising his counterfeit plan right along with it...

What personally bugs me is that we seem to be going so out of our way for the illegals. Example- my daughter went to Primary Children's hospital last spring. We showed up in the ER late one Friday night. The place was overrun with Mexicans and I'm assuming most of them were illegal. The hospital has to staff interpreters - they make zero effort to assimilate, as Elder Eyring said (or little effort- the least amount they must do to get by, I suppose). They've learned the system, that if you show up after hours, the ER has to take care of you. You don't need to even learn English, cuz we'll take care of that, too. M

Maybe this is just a big humility test? Cuz sometimes it really gets me riled up. I have to step back and think about this... Very interesting topic, which affects us all.

Fregramis · Senior Member

If the nation wishes to let millions of illegals enter the U.S. without impunity, so be it. All I ask is for the US to show some consistency and get rid of the naturalization process, the need for green cards or visas, and border checkpoints with Canada.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Technically, 'this land' that none shall come into already includes Mexico, doesn't it? Are we going to have the one Cumorah/two Cumorah debate? I was under the impression that the Promised Land wasn't limited to the U.S.

Even though I'm actually more on ray's side of this debate than not.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

More food for thought

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

RE: An Apostle on Immigration

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

What an interesting twist on this issue.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

The Savior told the Nephites that the gentiles and members of the House of Israel will assist the seed of Lehi in building the City of Zion. (3 Nephi 21:22-26.)

Where are we gonna get all those seed-of-Lehi construction workers? And I guess I need to learn Spanish, because I'll probably be building cabinets (my only construction skill) under their supervision.

Plus, there's this:

The City of Zion, with its sanctuary and priesthood, and the glorius fulness of the Gospel, will constitute a standard which will put an end to the jarring creeds and political wranglings, by uniting the peoples of North and South America in one great and common bond of brotherhood; while truth and knowledge shall make them free, and love cement their union. Proclamation of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Published at New York, Apr. 6, 1845. Included in Writings of Parley P. Pratt.

Maybe we should move this thread to "Signs of the times"

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I agree with your assessment Lundbaek of the Gentiles, at least for the most part... though I always secretly hope that many of the cursings that the Gentiles will face in the future, will apply more to Europe than to the US.

Large majorities of people have... given up on marriage... stopped having families... embraced alternative lifestyles as on par with those of the Lord's design... consuming all things upon their lusts... walking after the lusts of their eyes... full of pride... and while they love their pets, they treat their fellow men with contempt... they've lost natural affection... christianity is a hiss and a byword... and the churches that do succeed are built up to be popular and get gain... every man is oppressed by his neighbor... children are taught to be rude to the ancient, and women rule over them... they grind the faces of the poor...

Their entertainment is sorceries and babblings, vain things... wealth is vanishing like a puff of smoke... just like the Book of Mormon curses.

They are cursed by their wealth, to the point where they NEED cheap labor, are territorial about their acquisitions, and embrace a bizarre sense of entitlement that leaves them feeling guilty about their very existence.

I just hope that we can unstick ourselves from it all... Living in the middle of it is tough sometimes... cuz it's all so very enticing and easy to be drawn into the fray...

In order to navigate these perilous times I think we need to do our best to do as the prophets have told us.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I have no problem with the concept that the peoples (individually and collectively speaking) that come to the Americas (or the promised land as referred to in The Book of Mormon) are led here by the Lord's hand.

But, beyond that general agreement with concept, I feel it may be premature to speculate on what that actually means today in relation to prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled or to comment on the state and condition of our nation (or any other nation of the New World continents).

I would think that a member The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles making a comment as lundbaek has attributed to him was done simply for the point of helping individuals maintain focus on what is most important... namely living the gospel and loving their neighbors, regardless of whether they are in the country under legal status or not. It is certainly not something that should be interpreted as condoning or opposing the issue at hand of how to enforce laws.

Think about it... is there a "right" and a "wrong" to the argument about illegal immigration? Yes. No. All the above. But, for the adversary, does he care? I don't think so. He is more interested in stirring up contention.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I mentioned to a friend yesterday that it's interesting that the Church bapizes illegals. He said simply, "I guess honesty doesn't mean much."

So there I was, thinking I'm getting all sucked in to ray's argument that being illegal is okay, (no offence, ray- I'm really having a time with this topic) and WHAM, just his comment left me with no comeback.

"The City of Zion, with its sanctuary and priesthood, and the glorius fulness of the Gospel, will constitute a standard which will put an end to the jarring creeds and political wranglings, by uniting the peoples of North and South America in one great and common bond of brotherhood; while truth and knowledge shall make them free, and love cement their union. Proclamation of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Published at New York, Apr. 6, 1845. "

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I can't believe YOU didn't have a comeback... you have a comeback for everything!!

Last time I checked, the church only baptized sinners... glad to hear this fellow thinks he's above the need for it.

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Coco...

THIS is your comback...

In the Lord's kingdom, there are NO political boundaries.

There is no recommend question about honoring or sustaining the laws of the land.

Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? They can answer yes.

Is it dishonest to come across the border to feed your family? I don't think so.

Have I joined Ray's side in this????

HELP!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Nah, Ray doesn't have a side, unless of course you're looking at him from the side, then it may be pretty immense from what I've heard

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Of course, there is a Side-Ray {ta-da-dap! cymbol crash!}

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? They can answer yes."

How so? I mean, isn't becoming an illegal pretty foundational? What about the CON-STANT lying that's involved? Do they take advantage of our health system? Do they - I don't know - what do these people do? Go to our public schools, use foodstamps, what else? That they sort of... steal? They've learned the system and work it to their advantage.

And ray, I take that as a total compliment.

And yes, the Church baptizes sinners, but this seems so... basic. Obviously a shift in thinking is called for on my part. I'm working on that. Hopefully Gen. Conf. can help me out, too.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Remind me again, Why is it lying to avail yourself of education or emergency services?

I think that as members, all we can do is extend our best foot forward and try to include these people into our way of life. The Government has shown a complete lack of willingness to do anything about it, and you're not a border patrol agent, nor is anyone else within the church. That's simply not the church's duty. Nor is it the church's duty to see that you pay your traffic tickets, no matter how unfairly they were given you.

It may be that an Illegal alien confesses his status to his bishop, but what's his bishop going to tell him?

"Sorry, you can't be baptized, (or attend the temple) until you go home."

How exactly does that help?

If your friend thinks we should simply ignore or shun these people because they've come here illegally, all that serves to do is further ostracize and marginalize them from society. Those seeking for the truth and the high standards of America are then trapped in an untouchable caste which is an evil, evil thing to do to any person who is a child of God.

Nephi had to break the law in order to obtain the law (Laban's head, chop chop... brass plates). America had to break the law in order to obtain the law. (Boston Teaparty, dump, dump... independence)

Sometimes I think we are akin to Pharisees who complain that Christ's disciples are busy picking ears of barley on the Sabbath day, when the Lord of the Sabbath is right there in front of us... We cannot afford to tell bad stories about these people anymore. We cannot continue as (LDS) people to accuse these folk who are entering our communities of having a wife in Mexico and in the states. We cannot think of them all as criminals. We cannot continue to perpetuate lies about illegals being the primary inhabitants of prisons. All of these exceptions are not the rule.

I think we should be doing what we can to encourage families to Come unto Christ. I love this country, but I love it because of what it offers to the world, not what it tries to keep from the world.

This is the place where the Gospel was Restored. Those who come into our communities are brought into our path for a reason that only WE can help with... so we should prepare. If we shirk our responsibility as builders of Zion, the Lord will find another people to do it...

I really really really don't wanna be overlooked, cuz already i have begged at the Master's table for crumbs of mercy--while there have been so many who were much more deserving. He has invited us to feast as kings, so let us not make excuses as to why we cannot come and dine with hiim, else the Lord will open his house to the vagabonds on the street... By small and simple, the weak things of the earth, with the Lord confound the wise.

Helaman 3:
36 And it came to pass that the fifty and second year ended in peace also, save it were the exceedingly great pride which had gotten into the hearts of the people; and it was because of their exceedingly great riches and their prosperity in the land; and it did grow upon them from day to day.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

you're not a border patrol agent, nor is anyone else within the church.
Hmmm... do you have proof to that assertion that no member of the church is employed as a border patrol agent or border guard?

We cannot continue to perpetuate lies about illegals being the primary inhabitants of prisons
On a more serious note, though, that statement simply doesn't make sense... prison populations are typically going to reflect the same ratio of people by demographics as make up the cachement area for said prison... Just like in Utah, 90% of the DWI is not going to be blamable on the the 50% or whatever it is of people who are not LDS. So, if you have an county or a state that has a high concentration of illegal immigrants, it stands to reason that chances are pretty good a good sized proportion of the prison and jail population will be illegal immigrants.

One thing we talked about in EQ yesterday was the concept of justice. I'm not sure how to work it into this conversation, as the topic has been pretty well derailed to begin with, but it is important to remember that mercy does not rob justice, nor do the two concepts cancel each other out. In other words, mercy does not remove the consequence for breaking of law. It transfers it to another. Law (from God's perspective) is fixed and can not be moved, hence justice must be filled when a law is broken.

Regardless of what we think about the big picture on illegal immigration, the fact remains that those who enter our nation are breaking a law of the land. Temporally, there may be little or no consequence to be faced. But, spiritually, we do not know what consequence there is. Just as you and I do not know what the spiritual consequence is for driving a couple mph above the speed limit. I'd wager that at some level we will have to provide a level of accounting as to how we upheld and sustained the laws of the land and government we were subject to, though. I think this can be considered mutually exclusive of our "being honest in our dealings with our fellow man" to some extent in many instances.

We are not the spiritual judge of others, thank goodness, even not entirely if a man holds the priesthood mantel of being a common judge in Israel. But, if there is some sort of spiritual consequence to disobedience to the laws of the land, then we can be assured that like all other sins and transgressions, ultimately, only the repentant soul will be able to cast that consequence upon the Savior, thus activating mercy and satisfying justice.

So, the question becomes, how do we help those who are in need of repentance to crossing the border and immigrating illegally?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"It may be that an Illegal alien confesses his status to his bishop, but what's his bishop going to tell him?

"Sorry, you can't be baptized, (or attend the temple) until you go home."

How exactly does that help? "

Restitution?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

We cannot continue to perpetuate lies about illegals being the primary inhabitants of prisons. --Ray

While not the primary inhabitants of prisons, in California it is estimated that the cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in California's prisons and jails amounts to about $1.4 billion a year (not including related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration). This is from a 1994 study by the Urban Institute. $1.4 billion dollars in California per year! That's a small price to pay for people just to have a better life isn't it Ray?

From Fox News we learn: "
"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants and 60 percent of outstanding felony warrants are for illegal aliens." 95% of outstanding homicide warrants are for illegal aliens. Small price to pay for people just to have a better life.

From the U.S. Government Accounting office we learn that there are 18,000 illegal aliens in California Prisons. There were only 6000 total prisoners in the Utah prison system in 2004 according to the Deseret News. That means that there are three times the number of illegal immigrants in California prisons as the total prisoner population of Utah. But that's just a small price to pay for people to have a better life.

A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater. The gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complicated drug distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and is responsible for an assault or robbery every day in Los Angeles County. The gang has dramatically expanded its numbers over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, a vast proportion illegal, from Central America and Mexico. Source: (Heather Mac Donald a John M. Olin fellow at the Manhattan Institute) But that's just a small price to pay for people to have a better life.

I say, lets have legal immigration, secure, so we know who is here. I love immigrants from Mexico. For the most part they work hard and contribute to society but to discount the affects of illegal immigration on crime is very disengenous to those who have to live with those problems. Many, many crimes in the illegal immigrant community simply go unreported because the victims and witnesses are not supposed to be here. Even when charges are filed, many witnesses dissappear because they are not here legally. Children are assaulted both physically and sexually. Their parents often won't report the crimes because they and the children may not be here legally. But it's all worth it because they are just trying to have a better life.

Illegal immigration victimizes the illegal immigrants and creates a sub class of cheap labor that lives in the shadows. Poor control at the border means the good get in but also many, many horrible people come in also because the door is wide open. Why is government not doing the right thing?

Money! Follow the money. They want cheap labor mowing their lawns and cleaning their houses. They want cheap labor building their houses and making their food. So we replaced 18th century slave labor with 21st century illegal immigrant labor. Boy, aren't we enlightened and progressive!

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Another friend with whom I shared Elder Eyring's comments on the immigration issue had this to say:

"Brother Eyring’s comments mirror my feelings over the last 3 years. While it is illegal for them to enter the country the way they do, we, as a people, have invited them, and bribed them to come by offering welfare benefits and limited penalties with regular amnesty programs for those willing to take the limited risk. The problem could have been resolved 30 years ago but now it has reached critical mass. If we were to take the iron fisted stance you and many other well intentioned patriots have promoted, it would cause massive civil unrest, civil war and anarchy. While the stance is legally correct, it is now too late to take such action.

"As with many of the other maladies which our nation suffers right now, they could have been treated without too much negative effect during the 60’s. Treatment would have been harder in the 70’s. By the 80’s it would have caused serious distress for the country, and now, treatment is perhaps worse than living with the sickness until it finally causes death. Our nation is so ill now that treatment is not really possible."

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Is it bad that I take some sort of sick contentment that I was too young to do anything in the 60s, 70s or most of the 80s?

What this friend of yours says looks right to me.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Jase: My point is that if you treat all the millions as criminals, you don't help the situation. You can claim that it's all their problem, but then, people have been claiming that for years and what good has it done? The same thing is said about black minorities as well... and the only thing that's come of bringing too much blame is they've embraced the criminality in the form of gangsta rap music... gangs... Jesse Jackson... and worse...
--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I actually went to the website about immigration (can't remember what it is but I'm sure everyone here can google). I put on the sombrero off the halltree and took the little quiz to see how hard it could be... I flunked! They said I was not eligible! I don't even know why...

arbilad · Head Chef

Sometimes I think we are akin to Pharisees who complain that Christ's disciples are busy picking ears of barley on the Sabbath day, when the Lord of the Sabbath is right there in front of us... We cannot afford to tell bad stories about these people anymore. We cannot continue as (LDS) people to accuse these folk who are entering our communities of having a wife in Mexico and in the states. We cannot think of them all as criminals. We cannot continue to perpetuate lies about illegals being the primary inhabitants of prisons. All of these exceptions are not the rule.

There are many types of lies, Ray. There's lying about something happening which isn't happening. And there's lying to yourself that something isn't happening when it is. I think that the latter sort is just as pernicious, if not more so, as the former.
For instance, how do you know that it's a lie that illegal immigrants are disproportionately responsible for crime? Someone else pointed out the statistics that Fox news quoted. I think you have to have greater evidence that it isn't so than just saying "That's wrong".
When Mahonri pointed out that many illegal immigrants move in with a woman here while still supporting a wife at home, he's speaking from a position of experience; he lives in the area and has seen it. I think you need better evidence than just saying it's a lie.
I agree that, in light of the quote Lundbaek gave us, I need to do some reconsidering of my position on illegal immigration. But I still fail to see why we should not strive towards a better solution. If they came in legally, we'd be happier, they'd be happier (they'd not be treated as a peasant class), and everything would be better. Why not fix the process so that it works?

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:
Jase: My point is that if you treat all the millions as criminals, you don't help the situation. You can claim that it's all their problem, but then, people have been claiming that for years and what good has it done? The same thing is said about black minorities as well... and the only thing that's come of bringing too much blame is they've embraced the criminality in the form of gangsta rap music... gangs... Jesse Jackson... and worse...
--Ray

Â

Oh, and Ray, the obvious answer to this is that criminal action affects our communities. By identifying the problem, we can deal with it. For instance, by helping mexicans come over legally. We'd be able to screen out much of the bad element. There was a time when latino culture was considered exotic and interesting in our country. The illegal immigration problem has done away with a lot of that.
Arabs are disproportionately responsible for terrorist actions. Should we ignore that fact because it happens to be about a specific ethnic group? No, we should love the group, but realize that certain group members may be a danger to us. So, for instance, I had a great boss that I occasionally keep in touch with. He happens to be muslim. And even though I think he's a great guy, I'm all for ethnic profiling of muslims in airports.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

But this is the problem with any trend, Arbi... we make the exceptions the rules. Millions of Mexicans enter the US to work and send money back to their families. And of these millions, there are some problems... It's wrong to characterize the whole lot by the few bad apples.

Many of the stories we perpetuate, only serve to perpetuate our mistrust of "us and them"...

Maybe I am too idealisitic, but I think in order to forgive and forget, someone needs to be a little idealistic.

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Forgive and forget is good.

Repentance is even better.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

We're required to forgive all men.

We're not supposed to call them to repentance.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

When I look at the illegal immigrant issue from a church perspective I always come back to the thought of the seed of Jacob being as a lion in the midst of the gentiles. I personally think that is what this is/or will be the catalyst to that event.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Is anyone supposed to call anyone to repentance?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Mirkwood: That image has impressed me so much so that I named my only son Lionel... because of that scripture... out of the hope that he'd be a lion, rather than the other... :)

Well, that and his grandpa's middle name is that too...

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

Is anyone supposed to call anyone to repentance?

Mosiah 18:20 seems to say yes

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Yeah, Ray... on this issue, you are a bit too idealistic.

It is EXTREMELY common for a man to come here and send money back to his family there. If he doesn't send for them and have a coyote bring them across within a year, chances are real good that he has a sancha (concubine) here that he has moved in with or visits regularly.

And yes, we are called to call people to repentance.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I thought he was named after Lionel Ritchie. Awl Naat Lowng! Uh huh. Oh, yeah.... Ahem.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I thought it was after Lionel from the Thundercats! Admit it Ray, yer a thundercats fan!

-- Edited by salesortonscom at 14:29, 2007-03-28

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I thought it was in honor of the Jeffersons... you know, George and 'weesie's son, Lionel...

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

To knowingly take something you have not earned, in this case welfare/govt medical/education/etc, it is dishonest, even if the govt says it is okay. Why, because it is my money, stolen by the govt, pure and simple.

Also, as to the lion and Jacob thing, I have thought as mirkwood has stated. The Lord uses the wicked to bring about his purposes. One very important thing to bear in mind, though, is that those who are baptized into this church are adopted into the house of Israel and are a part of the covenant people, the Abrahamic covenant. Furthermore, we have been told that many of the members of the church are descendants, literal or to some degree, of the house of Israel. I am of the tribe of Ephraim and a descendant of Joseph or adopted, and I do feel as a descendant and am part of the house of Israel.

My view is that the lion amongst the sheep includes faithful members of the church as well.