Puppet Masters and The Conspiracy

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Puppet Masters and The Conspiracy

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Here is my problem and I think we went through this before.

I imagine that all of this is well and good, Why are the 15 men who are prophets, seers and revelators not raising the warning voice NOW??... I mean in the next general conference. I don't want you to tell me that we have to do this on our own. I don't believe God operates that way. Yes, we have our free will and there are many things that we can do that will bless and benefit mankind if we will simply join together to do it, but you need to know that for most members of the Church it will take discourse from a current prophet, seer and revelator in order to get them to move. If a member of the current first presidency or the twelve tell the saints to move a certain direction, you can be certain that most will move in that direction.

"This battle will have to be fought outside the confines of the Church’s organizations. Members will have to seek out non-Church avenues in which to become involved in trying to save the Constitution from destruction. This includes working within the walls of our own homes and within the confines of our own communities".

This just doesn't seem right or correct to me. Of course we will work within the walls of our own homes and communities, but why would the current brethren remain silent? I've never had a LDS constitutionalist give me an answer to that question that is plausible for me. They remind us of many issues before us, show us where they are found in the scriptures and then tell us what to do... why do they remain silent on this issue?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Why are the 15 men who are prophets, seers and revelators not raising the warning voice NOW?

They do. Every General Conference, I come away with the distinct understanding that the principles of God's Kingdom as defined in the Constitution are under attack. Our prophets warn us in seperate statements. The First Presidency has issued official positions on current specific political issues such as abortion, euthanasia, child abuse, and same-gender attraction. When we see our government endorsing contrary positions, that should be sounding the alarm that our inspired Constitution is under attack. Additionally, we have the standards in the scriptures and other proclamations such as "The Family" to use. The warning signs are there for us to see and act upon. Our prophet shouldn't have to spell out exactly what to look for and exactly how to respond. Are we lemmings or are we children of God endowed with intelligence and agency?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

They get specific with pornography and the rest, why are they not getting specific about the consitution?

Sorry, we aren't lemmings, but they always talk about those things that are most important to the Lord and His Church. I would think that they would also spend some specific time talking about the "conspiracy".

We have the standard works, but the brethren always talk about the things that matter most. When will they start talking about this?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Excellent question, Mahonri. I think the Church is purposely avoiding the subjects of conspiracies and the Constitution to avoid persecution. I had a hard time with it when I first realized it. But I have since come to terms with it.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

If dark and sinister forces are at work, pulling all the strings, undermining our liberties, just what are we supposed to do about it? Stockpile weapons and wait for the collapse, so that we step in and take over? Give up and just pray for the Second Coming? I don't see how this sort of mindframe encourages one to feel empowered or efficacious.

arbilad · Head Chef

fear of shiz wrote:

If dark and sinister forces are at work, pulling all the strings, undermining our liberties, just what are we supposed to do about it? Stockpile weapons and wait for the collapse, so that we step in and take over? Give up and just pray for the Second Coming? I don't see how this sort of mindframe encourages one to feel empowered or efficacious.

The best thing to do is exactly what the bretheren are telling us to do - be actively involved in politics. If we don't run for office, support the campaigns of good candidates who are running for office. Be aware of local issues and be involved in dealing with them.
The Lamanites were able to, at one point, get rid of the Gadiantons in their midst. I think it's time we did the same.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Well, that is what I advocate as well. I just don't think people are encouraged to get involved if they think some big conspiracy is going to run the show anyway.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

But aren't we promised that good will win in the end? I'd like my kids (or even myself) to be a part of that, if possible...

arbilad · Head Chef

Yup. Remember what they said in conference? The Lord's side is like the biggest, best equipped and trained army in the world, and the adversary's side is like a bunch of kids running around a room with squirt guns.
The Lord's side wins. The important thing is to make sure to be on his side.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Sometimes, I think it would help us all to be given that glimpse Elisha's servant was given... that they who are with us are more than they who are against us.

arbilad · Head Chef

fear of shiz wrote:

Well, that is what I advocate as well. I just don't think people are encouraged to get involved if they think some big conspiracy is going to run the show anyway.

It is easier to fight an enemy that you know. Secrecy works for secret combinations. So, Shiz, hypothetically speaking, if there were a conspiracy, would it not be better to advertise their presence so that secrecy does not work as well for them?

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

OK, Arbi. I'll grant you that point.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Ya gotta watch out for those puppet masters. That Jim Henson was devious!!!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

And he died of genetically modified Strep B, didn't he?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

From scriptures and statements of Apostles and Prophets, many LDSs have concluded that we are going to pass thru the hammers of hell before attaining the peace that will come with the Second Coming. My understanding of Revelation 13:7 is that powers of Satan will be permitted by the Lord "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them". And 13:11 to the end of the chapter indicates Satan will even get a second crack at it. I think this will be carried out by the puppet masters or latter day Gadiantons, under satanic inspiration. That’s just my opinion. I believe the Lord realized we would fail to awake to a sense of our awful situation, because of this secret combination which is among us, and allow these murderous combinations to get above us, which are built up to get power and gain, and instead uphold such secret combinations until they shall spread over the nation. (Ref Ether 8:22 - end) Don’t anybody try to tell me this isn’t well in the works.
We have basically 2 options. We can ignore the conspiracy, let Satan and his LDGs have their way, and even, hopefully in ignorance, support their works. In other words, let the conspiracy run the show. Or else we can learn all we can about the conspiracy, which will take time and effort, and when we understand it better, do whatever we can to minimize the damage it does to us. "Preparedness", yes. But I don’t think that’s enough. Even though the Church is not being nearly as specific as it was some years ago, the Scriptures still tell us certain things we should be anxiously engaged in, which, I believe, will not only minimize the damage and ease our burdens, but prepare a "remnant" that can facilitate the efforts to restore order and further promote the Gospel on the other side of all this.
I don’t think the Church is going to spell out a plan to accomplish these things. We have direction in the Scriptures. LDSs around my age have ignored them, and probably for our as well as its own protection, the Church no longer exposes itself to enemy flak by calling them to our attention. I think it is up to us to find and follow them.
And, BTW, I strongly believe that the First Presidency is well aware of the conspiracy which I’m on about.

arbilad · Head Chef

BTW, Shiz, I think you are right in that attitude about this is everything. Obviously being of the conspiracy theorist bent I hang around with or listen to many of them on the radio. There are some who are definitely deeply depressed about the conspiracy, about the state of the world in general. Even though they are religious, they don't take the attitude of "No matter what, the Lord will win in the end." They see the world ending around them and are truly in a funk about it. That's the wrong attitude to take.

Sure, we should be outraged at what the other side is doing (a statement I think you can agree with, despite not believing in a conspiracy). But we should keep it in perspective. We do win. We can have peace and protection now and as things get worse. The Lord is always there for us, if we listen to and follow him.

Fregramis · Senior Member

lundbaek wrote: I don’t think the Church is going to spell out a plan to accomplish these things. We have direction in the Scriptures. LDSs around my age have ignored them, and probably for our as well as its own protection, the Church no longer exposes itself to enemy flak by calling them to our attention. I think it is up to us to find and follow them.
And, BTW, I strongly believe that the First Presidency is well aware of the conspiracy which I’m on about.

There is a danger in advocating phantom agendas that only a select few in the Church are on to. I've seen this with people packing up and moving to Jackson County because the "Spirit warned them to..". They convey the sentiment that only the spiritually enlightened members know about this and the Church leaders know but do not discuss it. Two of these types of individuals of which I described had their Temple reccomends yanked and eventually lost their membership in the church.

The idea that the Brethren are holding back and withholding such dire information from the Saints who faithfully attend Conferences and read the monthly First Presidency messages is ridiculous and implies a spiritual elitism of the worst kind. I guess I'd be better off reading my scriptures and decoding the mystery than listening to the Brethren.

However, like Roper, I honestly feel they have exposed the true conspiracy of Satan, to bring us down into captivity. Here are some examples:

1. Pornography - If the stats are right, this is one of Satans greatest snares and there have been repeated warnings regarding it. If you are LDS and live in a Socialist country such as Sweden or Brazil, yet do not indulge yourself in this smut, you are a free individual. You can go to the Temple worthily.

2. Debt - This again is another tool of the adversary to ensnare us both temporally and spiritually. It is born of a "keeping up with the Jonses" mentality and it enslaves countless millions. No need for an Anti-Christ to come along and force you into slavery ---- you can do it on your own with a few small pieces of plastic!

3. Education - President Hinckley has stressed this one many times, especially to our youth. The world is becoming more competitive and economic markets are changing. The days of raising a family on an assembly line workers wages are departing rapidly.(Trust me....I tried it for 3 years. Now I'm in college!) These trade deals that rich barons make between countries (NAFTA, GATT, etc.) will hurt American laborers first. Education provides an escape route from this labor shift that is already ocurring.

I could go on.

Not every nation is as fortunate as ours to have a free constitutional governments as ours. Yet, those non-AmericanLatter-day Saints who keep their covenants and follow the Prophet can be blessed and protected from the conspiracy of Satan to enslave, just as American Saints may be protected. We need not fear the future. The stakes of Zion will offer protection if we get inside the tent out of the storm!

-- Edited by Fregramis at 09:09, 2007-03-22

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

lundbaek- I like what you've said so far. I'm not real familiar with the terms - like latter-day gadiantons and puppet masters and stuff, but I plan on making a study of it.

I agree with your position that the Church will not always spell out a plan for us to accomplish certain things. People have different missions in life and are largely driven by their desires.

In another thread, you'd listed some references including-

"Many Are Called But Few Are Chosen", "The Book of Mormon and the Constitution" and "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil" by H. Verlan Andersen (Out of print, reportedly at request of Church authority)

I own the first two titles and currently have the third checked out from the library. Why would the Church authorities request that these books not be reprinted? And do you know when this took place? Was it after Pres. Benson?

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 08:31, 2007-03-22

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Freg: Great post!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

http://ibtimes.com/articles/20070322/internet-blocking.htm

I have a hard time denying that stuff like this isn't part of a Satanic conspiracy?
--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Conspiracy or just another evil, liberal judge heck bent on making our society more secular/progressive?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Discussion of that judges ruling and wresting of the law is worthy of it's own thread.

hint, hint...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I agree with the judge. Does that make me a bad person?

eta: I find it interesting that someone would be opposed to government measures ensuring our children's physical health (because that's the responsibility of parents) but harshly critical when our government doesn't take measures to ensure our children's spiritual health. Isn't that also the parents' responsibility?

-- Edited by Roper at 19:12, 2007-03-22

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The judge's logic is faulty...

Just because there may be technology available for parents to use does not justify his saying the law is not needed, particularly when it starts smacking of that nebulous argument of "freedom of speech". Where does freedom of speech end (in the form of freedom of expression) and the freedom of determining one's own choice of association begin?

When was the last time you took your kids for a walk down the new strip in Las Vegas (or some place glitzy like that)? Do you think that it would be okay for purveyors of filth to be passing out advertising fliers to your kids with pornographic images on them simply because it is free speech for them to advertise the various "adult" entertainments available since you are there with them and should be able to filter it away?

Actually, my bad... I said let's start another thread on the discussion, and I forgot this wasn't the topic of this particular thread.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat, I understand the position is opposite yours, but how is the judge's logic faulty?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I disagree with the decision because there are no regulations to hooking up to the internet at all, which means that your toaster may someday accidentally download porn.

Did you know that you can download porn on your cellphone, or your Wii nintendo game box? As more devices become "wired" ESPECIALLY in cities where there will be wireless access points pretty much all over the city, this will only become a HUGE problem.

Not only does it destroy the network's usefulness due to the huge amount of traffic used to convey this stuff, but one's devices become further the vehicle of satan... Literallly your car could be downloading porn... in the near future.

You may scoff and say, "Oh please! You have to click on it in order to get it." But no... that's not true, it is easy as pie to accidentally websearch or YouTube into what appears to be a funny video or article, only to find it has garbage in it.

Heck, a couple months ago I was watching what I thought was a legitimate humorous sketch by someone I thought was a well-known commedian. In the middle of the sketch, someone had put a rather lengthy nude hot-tub scene that had nothing to do with the video. . . There was no warning, and YouTube, which tries to encode this stuff with parental warnings and such had apparently not gotten around to this.

Filters cannot filter data that is not properly tagged. There is no such thing as a filter that "views" content and then decides it is innappropriate. Language is constantly shifting, in the which innocent words take on devious meanings.

All it takes is a piece of malware or spyware and suddenly you're getting all kinds of website accesses you're not wanting to see... like that antimormon site that pops up on my friend's computer when he accesses LDS.org. And who asked me to send me porn spam?

Finally, filters, virus protection, firewalls, special os's, spyware and whatever the next filter or whatever will be required to run a clean computer is both expensive and requires more and more technical prowess. I'm beginning to wonder if its even worth the effort to get on the internet.

We need to get aggressive against this stuff, or our technology will continue to make this stuff more and more accessible, and the controls we have in place will become less and less. There are few stigmas even left to this stuff, soon it won't matter to most people if children watch it. That's what shreds my heart the most. Our nation has become intollerant of child abuse, but teaches it's children to abuse themselves. What kind of sick pressure is that!? It's as though we are consciously trying to destroy our own people, by encouraging behavior that is outright illegal, and then we all say "Tut-tut" and waggle our fingers when it happens.

COPA was a flawed bill, no law will be perfect, and in many ways is very outdated because the technology is speeding along, but something needs to be in place. Our deliberative governing bodies are weakminded and lack the creativity to save our children. We don't have the ability to percieve all the ways that nastiness can and will attack our children, all we can do is pray and be vigilant...

...and teach repentance and redemption...

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Thanks Ray... does that answer your question as to why the judge's logic is faulty, Roper?

Fregramis · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

We need to get aggressive against this stuff

Bingo.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
Our deliberative governing bodies are weakminded and lack the creativity to save our children.

Bingo again. Which is another reason why we shouldn't be entrusting them to do it.

I trust parents, teachers, and even industry much more than government to implement effective ways to protect children from porn.

arbilad · Head Chef

This is one reason why I am against the .xxx domain. On the face of it, it may seem to make it easier to filter them out. But it also makes it easier to find it. The filters out there do a pretty good job of identifying the sites with the filth in them. The problem, as I understand it, is as Ray pointed out, the innocuous videos that suddenly have something bad. the .xxx domain wouldn't fix that.
Besides, a kid with the will and the opportunity will get past a filter. That's why you put the computer in a public place, look at the history of your browser, etc.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

lundbaek wrote:

Excellent question, Mahonri. I think the Church is purposely avoiding the subjects of conspiracies and the Constitution to avoid persecution.

I agree with this belief.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

But as a matter of public policy, I think it is important to have something like COPA. I've heard it said that when Clinton was in office, pornographers had free reign to do as they wished because the Justice department's focus was primarily on dangerous religious cults and illegal firearms. It won't take much for our government to go from a lack of enforcement to endorsement of such things, and Hollywood is more than willing to put porn in any place that will get them money.

I also think it is naieve that you think you can get (OR AFFORD) a filter for every item that will soon have internet access. Can you even buy a web filter for your Xbox, or your cellphone!?

Again, these are common items children use, that could be hijacked by pornographers even before our children know to refuse it.

THere's a disturbing trend in Hollywood movies right now to have little children uttering profanity and the most vile things, being exposed to, or acting out things that are entirely adult. It's seen as "funny". As it permeates the school yard, being net-savvy won't be enough.

I guess this is my conspiracy theory for all you nay-sayers out there, but I have never been one to underestimate the potential we have to screw up our children.

--Ray

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Welcome, Mirk! Love the avatar!

Fregramis · Senior Member

mirkwood wrote:

lundbaek wrote: Excellent question, Mahonri.I think the Church is purposelyavoiding the subjects of conspiracies and the Constitution to avoid persecution.I agree with this belief.

So when repentance and the atonement and the Family Proclamation become unpopular, the Church will purpsoefully avoid mentioning them for fear of persecution??

Give me a break!

This is a WORLDWIDE church! More members of the church live OUTSIDE the U.S than inside! The Brethren rarely discuss these issues of the U.S. Constitution going down the toilet because most members of the Church live in countries where the constitution already went down the toilet (Brazil, Mexico, etc). It's old news. To sum it up, we got bigger fish to fry.

-- Edited by Fregramis at 08:22, 2007-03-28

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Another possibility for not talking about it is because it doesn't exist...
--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"So when repentance and the atonement and the Family Proclamation become unpopular, the Church will purpsoefully avoid mentioning them for fear of persecution??"

Not only avoid mentioning it or preaching it, they might even utterly REVERSE their stand. See Wilford Woodruff on polygamy.

Maybe it's not so much that it's unpopular with the world, but that there was a window of opportunity that no longer exists. We can change emphasis with the circumstances.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

I agree with Cocobeem that there was a window of opportunity that no longer exists for us to prevent the conspiracy from gettng above us.

I well remember that Church General Authorities did warn us about a conspiracy to destroy our freedoms and enslave us, not only in America, but in all nations. Presidents McKay and Benson were especially outspoken about this threat. And it was clear the threat came from unrighteous government. Other General Authorities in the past and a few other prominent members of the Church also tried to warn us. And interestingly and importantly, they accomplished that without personal attacks against individuals. Today, we only have certain scriptures, most notably 2 Nephi 28, Ether 8, and Revelation 13, to continue the warnings.
It appears to me and others that the Church has changed emphasis with the circumstances brought on by our failure to adequately act on the warnings. For the Church to keep harping on the issue now would bring persecution upon it. It is active in the effort to promote the family and morality, especially sexual morality. But I've heard nothing I can remember in recent years about the proper role of government and upholding the US Constitution. Just the same, I don't think it is wise for us to ignore the conspiracy to enslave us under a socialist dictatorship. Even though it has gotten above us, by being aware of it we can still, as individuals and/or in small groups, minimize the damage it will do to us.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

McKay and Benson, eh? Gee, what worldwide atheistic threat to liberty and free government were they worried about???

Can you say COMMUNISM!!!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You think communism is dead? Seriously.

Also check out the Boyd K. Packer quote from 2004 in the Constitution Hanging by a Thread thread. Thread thread. he he He sounds a lot like Benson used to.... Doesn't he realize the Berlin Wall came down?

arbilad · Head Chef

I agree with Coco. I don't think that communism is dead. For one thing, the far left radicals of the 60s are todays liberal politicians. They pretty much embrace the whole platform of the communist manifesto. Pres. Benson said that the conspiracy was gaining ground in the US as well. If the evil he was speaking of was communism, can you prove that communistic principles in the US have died? I think they're alive, well, and growing.
Besides, he didn't limit it to communism. He made those statements at a time when it wasn't looked down upon to denounce communism openly. Why didn't he say "communism" if he was referring to it specifically?
Besides, as I said, communism isn't dead. Over one sixth of the world's population lives in an avowed communist country. Vietnam and Cuba, while not large countries comparitively, are both still openly communist. In addition, many european countries have socialist parties in power or as a major governmental influece. Communism is growing, not dieing.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Arbi brings up a good point. How good are we, as average American Mormons, at identifying communism when no one is out there calling it "communism" for us? What if it has a new, benign name, like... wonderfulism?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Perhaps what is more of a danger to us than overt communism is moral relativism.

Seems to me that is what the Prophet and Apostles have been preaching against in the last number of years...

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

I believe identifying or recognizing communism would become easier if one would read Chapter 8 of "Many Are Called But Few Are Chosen", which can be read on line at http://www.redhotlogo.com/MACBFAC4.htm#_Toc153730475

and Chapter 2 of "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" http://reactor-core.org/none-dare.html