Eye opener... Illegal immigration...

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Eye opener... Illegal immigration...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

the link didn't work. evidently the illuminati are working against you...

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Try the new link above.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Wow. And I 99% of the time won't watch a video that long (13 min.), but wow. I'm going to have MrCoco watch it tonight.

It's worth the time.

What do we do?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Vote for Mitt.

He wants legislation that sends all family members back to Mexico...even if the younger ones were born here.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh, good. I was planning on that already.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Wait..."Eye Opener... Illegal Immigration"?? This man's analysis was all based on LEGAL immigration numbers, unless I missed some huge segue. (Look at the labels on some of the first blue screens he flashes.)

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I was WAITING for someone to notice that!!!

You get the prize...

NOW factor in all of the ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION on top of the LEGAL IMMIGRATION and you can see the troubles we are facing unless we do somthing, and do it fast!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I didn't look at the charts good enough!

Holy cow!

Euph is like waaaay smart.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

It should be very clear by now that President Bush & Co., as well as many congressmen, both in the House and in the Senate, are intent on continuing the flood of especially illegals into the country and pushing for amnesty, regardless of how much they burden Americans with lower wage scales, overwhelm our medical and social welfare systems, disrupt our country’s social fabric, and increase our national debt. They seem to see no wrong in permitting illegal aliens access to the benefits that legal Americans and legal aliens paid for. They condone legislation, already proven not to work, that would allow unlimited amnesty for illegals already here. They have persecuted border patrol agents for trying to stem the flow of illegals and drugs into the country, and have helped known smugglers to "skate" away from prosecution.

Anybody should realize that the easiest solution to the problem would be to forget about amnesty and impose big penalties, including heavy fines and long prison sentences, on those responsible for hiring illegals. The rest of the illegal immigration problems will resolve themselves when there are no jobs for illegals. But it is "We, the people" who elected those corrupt presidents and legislators, like the one who stated “We love immigration in Utah....And we don’t oftentimes make the distinction between legal and illegal.” I think this is in big part because the mainstream media is minimizing Americans' awareness of events that ought to be very alarming to Americans. Like it or not, we have got to realize that the mainstream media is not on our side, and we need to start looking at alternate sites, even those that to some appear to be part of that "vast right wing conspiracy". Also, like it or not, more Americans need to start thinking about and figure out why so many in government are so anxious to foster illegal immigration.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

lundbaek- Who do you like for 2008? What alternate sites do you like?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

To Cocobeem's question Who do you like for 2008?: At this point my preference is Ron Paul because of his consistent support of constitutional and other Christian principles. I don't think he has a ghost of a chance of becoming president, and I wonder why he is running. Most American people are not capable of appreciating or understanding his principles. I am waiting to see who the Constitution Party will run for president, or if the CP will back Ron Paul as I'm now hearing is a possibility.

Re. my preferred news sites, I'll address that question when I have time to do it justice. There is much more to knowing what's going on and why than just reading news reports.

Pt314 · Senior Member

You can get a good idea about lundbaek by reading earlier posts here in Bountiful. Sure glad he is here, as he makes discussions more interesting.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

To answer Cocobeem's question about my preferred sites for trying to figure out what's going on in the world, the first sites I go to most every day are the Daily News Links on worldaffairsbrief.com, newswithviews.com, thenewamerican.com, and worldnetdaily.com. But even on these sites I do not believe everything I read. Whenever I take interest in a reported event, I compare the story with what I have experienced, with experiences others have shared with me, with statements and stories that I could believe which I have read in certain books, with what both ancient and modern prophets and apostles have told us, and with shared observations and findings of a few certain friends and others who I believe have done their "homework" Usually a combination of the above is necessary to analyze an event.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I have to admit that I have a problem with the presentation for a couple reasons.

First, it is our own nations selfishness that is the reason that our population has ceased to grow.

Second, There's a bizarre assumption in the numbers in which one supposes that there will be some kind of blissful event if there is no population growth in the US, like we'll all get the perfect job.

Sorry you don't get the perfect job because of your nation's population. You get it because you work hard and study hard and get a decent education and the Lord blesses you with one.

Regardless of what happens in our society's future, I believe the best path for all of us is to stay out of debt, prepare for emergencies by getting our food supply, marry and have families that are robust and well cared for, and finally I think that we should get as much education as possible...

Oh wait... that's what Pres. Hinckley says too, and he hasn't once mentioned the dangers of immigration. In fact in the last priesthood session he worried that some members stank of racism... though I'm sure that had nothing to do with the political frenzy that happened about the same time about immigration.

So remind me again... Does the church baptize illegal immigrants?

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm most certainly not racist... I'd love it if Mexico's best and brightest were coming to Phoenix... unfortunately we get a lot of the Mexican Mafia, many drug runners, coyotes etc... Perhaps if your children were in our children's elementary school, you'd see things a shade differently.

We still baptize them when we can. Many men leave their wife and children in Mexico and then find themselves a woman to live with here. (Course we can't baptize those)... sad thing is, They just act as if it's a natural thing and apparently the women in Mexico and Central America accept it as part of the normal course of events... as long as he continues to send the $$$.

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, I know at least my opposition to illegal immigration has nothing to do with race. I enjoy associating with Mexicans, there are many of their foods that I like (and not just the americanized versions), I think they have a culture rich in tradition, etc. Also, would it surprise you to learn that many legal Mexican immigrants are against illegal immigration? I think it unlikely (although I admit it is possible) that they are racist against Mexicans.
I'm against illegal muslim immigrants coming across the border too, but I have nothing against legal muslim immigrants, as long as they are not terrorists. I had a boss who is a muslim, and I had nothing but respect for him. I still use him as a job reference.
And as far as the prophet not talking about illegal immigration, I'm not surprised; that's a political issue, and he tries to stay away from that. He hasn't mentioned anything about global warming, either, and that's a huge political issue right now.
Remember the verse about being compelled in all things?
Why is it racist to want everyone to follow the law? If a bunch of white people camped out on my lawn, slashed the tires of my car, knocked down the chicken coop, tried to take liberties with my wife, etc. you can be darn sure I'd be taking measures against them. It's the same kind of thing with our current illegal immigration situation.
Is it not more compassionate, more loving, and more charitable to try to help improve the situation in their home country? Unless you have all of Mexico move here, some are going to remain in abject poverty there. Why not help them improve their country to be at least as well off as the US? That would do the greatest amount of good for the largest number of people. Help the people use their natural resources, learn better methods for farming, learn how to reform their government, etc. I think it's a cop out to say, "We'll just allow them to come here for better opportunities." Most of them, from generation to generation, don't improve their lot in life much. They live all ghettoed up, kept in their place in life like peasants. Why not show true bravery and love and solve the problem (bad economy in their home country) instead of treating the symptom (by having a few come here). Or are you saying, Ray, that our culture and country are inherently better than everyone else's, and that we should let them come to the US because their country could never be as good?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

There was a Mexican that was doing some work for my parents- physical stuff like taking down fences, moving things, clearing out stuff, putting up new fencing, etc. that my dad is not capable of doing anymore. He was a waaay hard worker. He went the extra mile, truly. When he was working, he was working. He had left his family in Mexico and was sending them every penny he could and hoped they would be able to "come over" in about a year. I asked my mom if he was an illegal. She said, "I don't know." Gosh, they were getting all this stuff done that really needed to be done around the house and property... Well, ends up he was illegal. I just didn't know what to think. He ended up actually going back to Mexico to see his family that he missed so much even though that meant he probably wasn't coming back to the US. He became our friend. I think illegal immigration is wrong and the huge number of legal immigrants is wrong. But there he was, in flesh and blood, working his *** off day after day to improve his family's lot in life. We even talked religion with him. (Scarcely anyone can avoid religion if they fraternize with my parents for any length of time.) I liked the video. Sort of the "lily pad" effect, where we don't really see the problems until they are right on us...?

So, here's the question- Does the Church allow baptisms of illegal immigrants? I can hardly believe that. Don't we believe in obeying the law? Or - what's the term when law is innately bad, such as murder, versus a law that is bad because a man or men say it's bad, such as the speed limit? (Any lawyers here?) If the Church baptizes illegals, that sends the message of our position as Latter-Day Saints, doesn't it? Does the Lord have a bigger plan going on here???

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I am not sure to what Pres. Hinckley was referring when he mentioned racism. I can't say for sure it applied to the raging debate that was and is ongoing about illegal immigration.

I believe that many GAs believe that those who come to this country are led here by God, and that we should be doing our best to introduce them to the Gospel. If this were a secret combination the BEST WAY to fight such things is the preaching of the Gospel. And yes, from everything I've read, the church allows illegals to be baptised. It is interesting to read the Book of Mormon and the language that surrounds those passages describing gentiles coming into this land...They came out of 'captivity' (1 nephi 13).

Isn't that why Mexicans come here? Aren't they in captivity?

I don't agree with militants or those who exploit the system and treat these people like cattle.

But I think it is amazingly naieve to think that this is something we wish to step in the way of... I just can't get beyond the possibility that God has a hand in it... This country is based upon principles that could (if we weren't so amazingly selfish as a people) support a whole lot more than just our own children. We might not all have flatscreen teevees in every room, own a fleet of SUVs or have two homes and a vacation home...

We all have room to repent of our pride, wealth and vanity.

3 Nephi 20:
14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.

18 And I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.

19 For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it.

20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.

21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.

22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.

Are we not in the middle of this? Is not the remnant of the seed of Jacob taking back what we took from them? What part of American Materialism are you willing to defend?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 16:26, 2007-03-19

arbilad · Head Chef

Are we not in the middle of this? Is not the remnant of the seed of Jacob taking back what we took from them? What part of American Materialism are you willing to defend?

I'm not willing to defend any part of materialism. I don't think it's a good thing.

You didn't answer my point. Do you think that the whole population of Mexico should move to the US? If not, why not work to improve the lot of the people in Mexico?

Sure we can support more. Which is why I'm in favor of legal immigration. I think it's helped many people. But I am adamant that there needs to be a way to control it so that we can defend ourselves.

And when you mention that several GAs are in favor of illegal immigration, can you tell me which ones, and give me relevant quotes?
Also, what have you proven with those scriptural quotes? Is Mexico now not part of the promised land that Lehi and his children were led to? I interpret those verses to include Mexico. Lets do all we can to improve their lot as well. I think that will go a long way towards overcoming the collective US selfishness, when we no longer think only about improving our own country, but when we reach out to those in other countries.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I'm not sure if you were asking that last question to me, ray, but my answer is:
Umm. I don't really know. None, right? Because materialism (even lower-cased) is bad.

See, to me, this has taken on a whole different slant in light of the fact (and I'll assume it is a fact unless someone brings up something else to refute it) that the Church- that would be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - will baptize illegal immigrants. It seems to me to be a direct contradiction to our professed doctrine to obey the law. It seems to me to send the wrong message, not only to those lawbreakers (and yes, I can see your point that they might feel it's "their" land to begin with so our laws to keep them out don't mean much) but also it does send a political message whether they want it to or not. That's my neophytical opinion.

I have to think about this a lot more now...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I agree with you Coco. If the church were to take a stance on this issue that was different than mine, I would reconsider my opinion and get behind whatever political movement made the most sense.

At this point I must just read the scriptures differently than other people. I have never been able to completely rationalize away my apprehension of what I perceive in this political issue with the scriptures I've read in the Book of Mormon. I'm glad there are folk like Arbi that interpret the scriptures differently, but I personally don't accept his interpretation--nor should he just blindly accept mine.

As for Arbi's challenge. It's a ridiculous question. If the entire population of Mexico moved here... I'd be the first to snatch up all the free land in Cancun, and other lovely areas with their beaches and I'd also claim their oil rigs... :) Oh wait... that'd be materialistic. Bad me.

--Ray

PS> Oh yeah, I changed my previous post, so that I don't have to go digging for GA quotes...

-- Edited by rayb at 16:51, 2007-03-19

arbilad · Head Chef

As for Arbi's challenge. It's a ridiculous question. If the entire population of Mexico moved here... I'd be the first to snatch up all the free land in Cancun, and other lovely areas with their beaches and I'd also claim their oil rigs... :) Oh wait... that'd be materialistic. Bad me.

It's a ridiculous question, but I asked it to help point out what I see as a weak point in your position. You welcome anyone who wants to come here so that they may have greater opportunity and provide better for their family. But it begs the question - what about the people left behind? Don't they deserve a better life too? That's why I think it is a better policy to help everyone improve their country wherever they are. That's what the church does. They have the Perpetual Education Fund for the very reason. I think it's an excellent idea.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

So...don't help anyone unless you can help everyone?

Should we not bother baptising people because there will always be people who are left out? After all, we could just help other Churchs learn more truth...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm not a proponent of dumping the perpetual education program, but I could never ethically justify in my mind the idea that because I pay into the Perpetual education fund, I can turn a blind eye to poverty in the world or the good that this country does by providing opportunities to escape captivity... simply by existing.

You claim you want to help Mexico, but your solution as far as I can tell is doing nothing in terms of a government solution... other than being militant towards illegals.

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Euphrasie wrote:

So...don't help anyone unless you can help everyone?

Should we not bother baptising people because there will always be people who are left out? After all, we could just help other Churchs learn more truth...

That's an argument ad absurdium. I didn't say don't help anyone unless you can help everyone. But our ability to help is limited. Wouldn't it be wise to turn that effort to where it will do the most good?

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

I'm not a proponent of dumping the perpetual education program, but I could never ethically justify in my mind the idea that because I pay into the Perpetual education fund, I can turn a blind eye to poverty in the world or the good that this country does by providing opportunities to escape captivity... simply by existing.

You claim you want to help Mexico, but your solution as far as I can tell is doing nothing in terms of a government solution... other than being militant towards illegals.

--Ray

You betcha I'm against a government solution - government should not be asked and not feel it has to solve everyone's problems. It's pretty bad at it, for that matter. When the tsunami hit, the UN was one of the last organizations in there and one of the least effective. When Katrina hit Louisiana the government was actively harmful to private relief efforts, who were there first and able to provide the most immediate help. I do not want a nanny government, nor do I recommend it for Mexico. They could do with government reform, not more government corruption.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Let me play a little game with you then...

You do believe that it's important to be self-reliant and help yourself when you can do it, right?

And you don't believe government should get involved in helping the Mexican people.

So why do you have such a hard time with the Mexican people trying to help themselves? That's what they do when they come here, and work hard, earn money, and try to pay for their families that would otherwise live in abject poverty.

Or do you think that the people from mexico actually harm their families by working for them and sending money back?

And if you believe that, then were you in their shoes you'd just let your family starve to death, rather than find the means to support them?

When my ancestors came to this country they came out of captivity.

So when did this oppression and captivity cease, that they are no longer welcome to come?

We can't be involved in nation building. We can't turn the other cheek when it comes to how these folk get into the country. We can't let them have the privileges we "earned" by being born here... they shouldn't come here to learn what it's like to live in freedom... "those people" should just stay in their place and make things better through osmosis...

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Ray, if someone wants to come here and improve their lot, I say let's have a process set up and let them. I'm not for keeping everyone out. But in order to protect ourselves we need to have a process. Even if it's something as simple as setting up booths along the border on our side where governments workers can process their visa, if the mexican government is too corrupt and makes the process impossible from their side. You have made a great case for the potential this country has to improve lives. But you have not made a case at all for why we need to allow them to come here illegally.
And yes, if a man comes here and sends money back to his family, that can be harmful. Have you ever worked away from your family? I did for 6 months, and it was very tough on all of us. I don't ever want to do that again. It would be much harder for someone from Mexico. For one thing, they're probably here for more than 6 months. Mahonri said that it is common for them to find another woman and live with her here, even though he has a wife back at home in Mexico. Affairs are very destructive to families. So yes, there is a potential downside.
And we need to think of a way to help our neighbors. We can't be selfish and just concentrate all our attention on our own country, telling ourselves that if they want a better life they can come here. In addition to continuing to improve our own country, we need to do what we can for our brothers and sisters in other countries. In the church we frequently do this, such as gathering old coats and sending them to poor people in Ukraine.
To use an example, would you say that we don't need to improve all schools, that those people who live in poorly performing school districts can simply move and go to a better school if they want to succeed (or use school choice, where available)? That may be an option for some, but in the long run it's best to try to bring the educational level of all schools up.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

To use an example, would you say that we don't need to improve all schools, that those people who live in poorly performing school districts can simply move and go to a better school if they want to succeed (or use school choice, where available)? That may be an option for some, but in the long run it's best to try to bring the educational level of all schools up.

So you oppose school vouchers and parental school choice? Nice. :)

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I find the above quote to be ironic coming from a homeschooler who is doing nothing to improve the local schools.

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

To use an example, would you say that we don't need to improve all schools, that those people who live in poorly performing school districts can simply move and go to a better school if they want to succeed (or use school choice, where available)? That may be an option for some, but in the long run it's best to try to bring the educational level of all schools up.

So you oppose school vouchers and parental school choice? Nice. :)

--Ray

I support parental school choice. I just don't think it should be the only option.

arbilad · Head Chef

bokbadok wrote:

I find the above quote to be ironic coming from a homeschooler who is doing nothing to improve the local schools.

Actually, strangely enough, I do try to improve the local schools. For one thing, I supported the campaign of my Bishop when he was trying to get elected to the school board. He didn't get elected, but you said "try", not "succeed".

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"But in order to protect ourselves we need to have a process." -arbi

This may be obvious to everyone else, but could you explain this more to me? What do you see occuring that we need to protect ourselves from? I'm just trying to bottom line this and I do better with easily understood speech. Does anyone else see anything we may need protection from if this course of events continues?

As for school vouchers, don't they actually take money away from public schools? Because the money follows the child? And parental choice is always there, it's just that they want government money to pay for their choice, right? I'd like to study all these issues in more depth with the election coming up, etc...

Back to illegals, I just can't get it off my mind that the Church baptizes these people. How do you rationalize that, arbi? Maybe rationalize is not a good word. What do you tell yourself to ... you know, be able to harmonize these two issues in your mind?

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 12:28, 2007-03-20

arbilad · Head Chef

Back to illegals, I just can't get it off my mind that the Church baptizes these people. How do you rationalize that, arbi? Maybe rationalize is not a good word. What do you tell yourself to ... you know, be able to harmonize these two issues in your mind?

Perhaps I am not the best person to answer this question. I have heard that the church baptizes illegals. That in my mind does seem to be at odds with our belief in following the law. But I also accept that I don't know everything, so I am perfectly willing to accept that they do it while trying to understand the issue.

BTW, when I speak of needing a process to protect ourselves, I'm just saying that we need to follow our visa process. If our visa issuing process does not work, then let's modify it. But we still need to establish a process and follow it. What are we protecting ourselves from? It is simplicity in and of itself for a terrorist to walk across an open border with anything up to and including a nuclear device. Not to mention that illegals are disproportionately responsible for violent crime.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yes, I see the problem with the "baddies" getting into our country very easily, along with their NBC weapons or whatever else. I also see that illegals are responsible for much violent crime.

So, ray... to get more at the heart of your position... Do you see any problems down the road with the masses of immigrants coming in? If there are problems, do you see that as a fulfillment of scripture or some higher plan?

This reminds me of the book Working Toward Zion. I bought it when it first came out and got about 1/2 way through until childbirth or some other thing distracted me. The charts the man used in the video reminded me of what the authors of WTZion pointed out as far as Church membership goes. By (some year... 2030?) there would be significantly more members outside the US than in. Also, by some year they project that MOST members of the Church will be living in poverty. What the heck? That almost sounds like a "weird" plan to me, if it is a higher plan...??

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Back to the public schools (before another thread gets started - hint

) --

I would think it's in everyone's best interest to improve public schools, regardless of how one's own kids are educated. If the education of 80% (or however many kids attend public schools) of your kids' peers improves, I think that would be a good thing for us and them.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

The serious danger I see in illegal immigration is the ostracization of these people so that they turn to more militant and are more marginalized from the mainstream of American society.

We should be celebrating the fact that we'll soon all be eating more beans.

I also think that if you want to get ahead in society, you have to be willing to work your butt off, REGARDLESS of your birth or status as a citizen in this country. This is what I intend to teach my children.

I think we should teach our kids to:

1. Stay out of debt.
2. Learn to work hard and be self-reliant.
3. Learn to love clean, healthy and virtuous lives.
4. Get married and have a family.
5. GET AS MUCH EDUCATION AS POSSIBLE...

and...

6. Learn the discussions in Spanish...

I think the draw to business and the ethical hurdles are FAR too high to turn off the hose we've opened up... Our politics are too embroiled in contention to solve this problem, and we as members should simply prepare for the inevitable.

Even were we to cut off Mexico completely (which, imo, is a mistake), there are too many reasons why Mexico will continue to be an important part of the US's future. The last thing we need is a Hugo Chavez ruling that country too... but hey, maybe then we'll actually try HELPING Mexico, rather than what we do now...

Both Arb and i agree that we should help Mexico become more prosperous. I think we should do the same for South America. It is in our interest to ensure the entire region is extremely stable and proAmerican...

I just think this political battle, its implications and the people being affected by it, are being stirred up with contention and racism and knee-jerk solutions and generalizations that don't help anyone to find the solution... hence I'm pretty hostile to a lot of the ideas put forth in this thread... :)

--Ray

PS> I approach this topic almost entirely from a religious perspective... which I admit is a weaker point of attack...

-- Edited by rayb at 13:27, 2007-03-20

DoubleD · Senior Member

-- Edited by DoubleD at 17:56, 2007-03-20

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray,

Would you want illegals so prevalent that your little girls could grow up and fall in love with one of them?

Is that racist?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Do they hold a temple recommend and love God, respect church leaders and her? If so, then I don't have a problem with it. Why should I?

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Plus, once they get married, they become citizens, right?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, please know that I'm with you in spirit in this thread. I'm staying out of this one, because so much of it seems to be a rehash, and I've already stated my position in similar threads. Besides, you're doing such an excellent job!

Yay for Ray!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

It's not rehash for the new people.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Good answer Ray.

and it's not automatic once you marry a citizen.... now it takes work, money and a bunch of papers.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

It's not rehash for the new people.

You're right, Coco. Thanks for the reminder. The first month after I joined Nauvoo, I started a few threads that I thought were really good. Then someone would respond and tell me it had already been discussed like 17 times and include links for my reading enjoyment. My apologies. I'll participate more enthusiastically now.

Go Rayb! Go Rayb! Woo Hoo!