The defense of the nation is an honorable and necessary activity.
The world is full of people who would not hesitate to destroy Western Civilization if they saw the chance. It will definitely happen without military defense. I am sure that God does not favor leaving our nation defenseless, thereby inviting agression. Jason said:
That is making the huge assumption that the Iraq war is in defense of our nation...I am not convinced that it is in our defense.
Randy says:
So, Jason, if my statement above makes the huge assumption that the Iraq war is in defense of our nation, then logically, if the Iraq war is not in defense of our nation, then it follows that (1) the defense of our nation is NOT honorable and necessary, and (2) that the world is NOT full of people who would like to destroy Western Civilization, (3) that people who wish such evil on us would NOT take action against us if they had the chance, and that (4) God DOES favor us leaving our nation defenseless.
Sorry, but these conclusions don't make any sense.
I know you're not going to read this, but I find it difficult to refrain from responding, and I know I can't do so at Nauvoo.
I think military service is honorable in most situations - regardless of whether the war is for self defence or not. That doesn't mean that I think non-self defense wars are honorable. They may or may not be. There may be appropriate times for pre-emptive wars, but I'm glad I'm not the one making that decision. It's a tough call. The revolutionary war could be said to be self defense, but it was fought mostly for a our freedom, not because most of the colonists felt themselves in danger of life and limb.
__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
rayb wrote: I wanna know if this one's been locked at Nauvoo yet... I foresee it being locked soon.
--Ray
Ray, that's your department (getting it locked, not being the one who locks it).
__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
I would never dream of closing a thread on purpose... But I did just advertise this thread... so hopefully we'll have some folks answer your questions Randy...
SO Randy if you thought the Iraq war was all contrived by a conspiracy in the government do you think you could enlist for the military right now?
My thinking is that in order to have a good military, we need all kinds... And that it's a decent and honorable thing to do. There have been times when I've wished I could do so, but then I also periodically wish I was in shape, twenty years younger, and better looking... :)
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I'm a very patriotic person. I see military service as honorable and brave.
I guess I do have to ask, is it important to enlist for the "right" reasons, or do the reasons not matter? This BIL is doing it ENTIRELY for the money. He's convinced that since he speaks, writes, and interprets Chinese fluently, he won't be sent out to fight (I guess because his intellect is more valuable to the Army than his physical skill?). I also know that he and his wife are very liberal, very anti-Bush, and I assume anti-Iraqi war, although the last I don't know for a fact. So his decision to enlist rubs me the wrong way a little I guess for a couple of reasons:
1) do I want a guy that doesn't support the current administration in any way, and more than likely protests the war, to be out there fighting with the other guys? and,
2) in light of that, would it be fair to leave his 5 children (more to come, they're going for 10 and have one about every year and a half) to put his life on the line for something he doesn't believe in?
As for my nephew, I think it's going to be an awesome thing for him. I think he'll do a good job. The discipline and purpose are exactly what he needs, and frankly I see this being the only way he'll make anything of himself. Especially now that he has a baby on the way that he'll have to provide insurance and child support for, but that's another topic. . . null
__________________
"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
I don't really understand what either of you or Nauvoo Jason (as our Jason here is not the same fellow) are talking about.
My take is that Nauvoo Jason is stating the same thing so many people are starting to say after having listened to the neo-hippie liberals for several years that the war in Iraq is not justified, which is really nothing more than a clarion call to bash the Bush Presidency.
I don't see, on the other hand, that his espousing that particular viewpoint that it is not a war that is to protect our nation, is the same as saying he is espousing the opposites of the other points you made. I think that may be a stretch.
Personally, I was a little confused as to whether the war in Afghanistan and then Iraq were justified at first as well, and I'm pretty conservative. But, the thought was put in my mind by the Spirit that reminded me of the scriptures in the Book of Mormon where so long as a nation is not guilty of the first or second offenses (acts of war shall we say?), then they are justified in taking the war to the enemy, and to the scripture where it told how the Nephites under Captain Moroni sought not the blood of the Lamanites nor took pleasure in it, but had to fight them because they would not leave them alone in peace, and the fact that through these actions, a new level of freedom was being brought to oppressed peoples (and you can't expect overnight success... how long did it take to fight WWII -- and not just US involvement -- and then how long after did it take to complete reconstruction?). I was put at ease that this was not an unjustifiable conflict.
What is not justifiable, though, is the internal politics that have been played by bleeding hearts who are anti-Bush that have prevented the resolution to occur properly. It seems that the way they want the war conducted (and for some respect have allowed it to be conducted) is like mini-Vietnam.
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
Amazingly, the Nauvoo thread is still open. I posted the following reply there:
Oath of enlistment:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
Oath of office:
"I, _____, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."
Military service is honorable as long as you honorably keep your oath. It doesn't matter if the Commander in Chief changes, or political ideologies change, or if you think a certain war is unjust. If you have a problem keeping your oath, then leave. Don't dishonor yourself and your country by being unfaithful to your covenants. If you break your oath, you have earned the consequences established by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
-- Edited by Roper at 20:24, 2007-02-06
__________________
The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Randy, you left out one vital part of what Nauvoo Jason said and why you felt the need to bring it over here before the thread got locked... (had to go see what the conversation actually was...)
With what has been revealed about the lack of intelligence, I feel there are a few parallels between our current leaders to the leaders of the Lamanites who would stir up their people to war. Not everything is parallel, but there are enough similarities that I am not comfortable supporting this war. That in and of itself is way over the top, to suggest or compare our current national leadership to that of wicked Lamanites Kings (or more precisely, Nephite dissidents who often wrested control or exerted great influence over the Lamanite Kings and hence were more often than not the cause of the stirring the Lamanites up to anger against the Nephites to the point of going up to war against them...). Sheesh, that is like the liberal version of calling all our elected officials nothing more than modern day Gadiantan Robbers like some of the ultra conservatives do...
Not that I gave much creedence to the opinions he espoused in the past, but that kind of puts the final nail in the coffin for putting any value in them from hence forth...
Just kind of reminds me, all the debate, analysis, study, what have ya, will not amount to a thing if one doesn't get a spiritual witness to the truth of something (anything) or eventually forgets that witness once received...
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Thanks Cat for pointing out that I am not the same Jason as on Navoo. That Jason is an imposter!
I've always viewed military service in such a way that one a person enlists or is commissioned that they do it with the intention of serving as required by military and unless their orders are illegal and/or unlawful that they must follow those orders to the letter. It disturbs me that some may join the military with ideas that they will serve but only if I don't do XYZ or order me to fight in President Jone's war etc. I don't think those folks should be serving in the military.
When I was in Air Force ROTC we had to do different what if projects and challenges. One was the story of an Air Force Squadron Commander who had lost many of his pilots flying in a particular area on several occassions without any meaningful victories scored in the engagement. He was ordered once again to fly the same mission in the same area. He asked his superiors to reconsider and offered his ideas as a good commander should but was turned down and ordered to fly the mission.
The squadron commander had some various choices. He could scrub the mission at the last minute and claim some excuse such as mechanical problems. He could run his own mission where he would attack another prime target which he knew would be less risky and result in major casualties and damage to the enemy but would thus be guilty of not following orders. He could run the mission as ordered and the casualties would be heavy to his squadron once again.
I think there were a couple other options as well but these were the main ones. We were to make the decision for the squadron commander. Many of the cadets chose to disobey orders and fly their own mission. Other chose to scrub the mission. Only a few chose to follow orders.
The way the scenario played out was that the mission as ordered was used as a feint to draw the enemy out of another area allowing another squadron to strike a key target and end the war. Those who chose to scrub or not follow orders found that they had cause the heavy losses to the second squadron and the mission failed causing the war to be prolonged. Those who chose to follow orders found their squadron flying an incident free mission because of the chaos and confusion of the other squadron hitting the key target and the enemy planes having to change their flight plans and head back in a fruitless attempt to defend the key target after flying out against the first squadron.
The lesson of the whole exercise is that it is important to follow orders when given because we may not see the whole plan. That asking questions was fine but that when an order is given we must follow it or it could cost even more lives. Can someone who goes into the military with a list of caveats and an unwillingness to follow certain lawful orders that come down the chain of command from a commander in chief they don't want to follow actually serve his country honorably?
It has been a month since I have posted on Bountiful, and it I have not read anything in this thread other than my original post since I made it. Until now.
I guess that's not very nice, but I felt that I needed a cooling-off period.
I'm beginning to think that I'll never be sufficiently cooled off to return to activity on the Nauvoo board. Here's the problem. Outrageous statements are made, and then replies to those outrageous statements cannot be made on that forum.
I was shocked by the idea that the free speech that soldiers die to protect is turned against them, suggesting that they are generally complicit in murder. While I can understand that people can disagree with me, I cannot consider holding back a reply. I try to make such replies as mild as I can, but when there is no option to make a reply at all (except to go to strangers for example at Ornery), it falls outside the scope of what I am able to deal with.
The war in Iraq, whether we agree to its wisdom or rightness, is not the entire mission of the US military, and to suggest that people who join the military to stop doing so (which is obviously what we should all do if Jason from Nauvoo is correct) is to also suggest that all military activity by the US cease. I suggest that if we stop all US military activity, that we will lose our freedom, and be dominated by people with highly objectional agendas.
If you think that's a stretch, that's fine with me. At least here we can discuss whether it is or not without being told to take it to Ornery.
Randy wrote: The war in Iraq, whether we agree to its wisdom or rightness, is not the entire mission of the US military, and to suggest that people who join the military to stop doing so (which is obviously what we should all do if Jason from Nauvoo is correct) is to also suggest that all military activity by the US cease. I suggest that if we stop all US military activity, that we will lose our freedom, and be dominated by people with highly objectional agendas.
A well-reasoned analysis, Randy. Whether or not we like the realization, we must accept the fact that there are people in this world who will only curtail their acts of violence when we respond with violence--it's the only thing they understand. Our military protects us from those people.
I believe that military service is honorable, as long as one keeps the oath entered into during enlistment or commissioning. If somebody has strong convictions against the war in Iraq, that person should not enter the military. To refuse to deploy would be to wilfully disobey an order, and therefore would be a direct violation of one's oath.
As an aside: I think everyone who intends to join the military should watch "Band of Brothers." I gives a more realistic idea (even though it's WWII, the principles still apply) of what to expect than the recruiters will tell you. My favorite quote: "That night, I thanked God for seeing me through that day of days and prayed I would make it through D plus one. I also promised that if some way I could get home again, I would find a quiet piece of land and spend the rest of my life in peace." - Lt. Winters
__________________
The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I think every sophomore in high school should be required to watch "Red Dawn".
yeah, the cold war is over, but it could be jihadists rather than russians.
Thank the Good Lord for the US military that preserves our freedoms.
__________________
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
